6/3/2003: Iraqi Dervish

Undertoad · 06-03-2003, 11:26 AM

I've always heard the term "whirling dervish" and never understood it.

It turns out that "dervish" is a Muslim sect especially in Turkey and Iran/Iraq. It's a fanatical sect (of Islam? surprise), a branch of the Sufi Islam which seems to be a bit more peaceful than the others (not a reach). I don't know but it seems like the Sufis turn their devotion inwards instead of outwards, and focus on their own behavior instead of the behavior of the rest of us. That's respectable.

Sufis believe that their primary goal is purifying their hearts and souls of thoughts other than of Allah, so they take on all kinds of activities that they figure will help them do that. That's what this guy is really trying to do. The "whirling" aspect is similar; not all dervishes do it, but it involves swaying and chanting and slowly building up to a frenzy of prayer. This frenzy often builds up to whirling, thus the term.

I can think of similar activity in other religions. The yogic flyers of Transcendental Meditation bounce up and down until they really believe they are levitating. "Speaking in tongues" remains a concept of Christian fundamentalists in this country.

Undertoad · 06-03-2003, 11:27 AM

Oh, also, that must be one of the finest unibrows ever displayed.

dar512 · 06-03-2003, 11:41 AM

The whole dervishkabob thing is strange just to look at. But can you imagine what'll happen when he needs to cough or sneeze? Ewwww.

xoxoxoBruce · 06-03-2003, 12:04 PM

I wonder why there is no blood. Have they been in so long
they've healed? Even if the blood has coagulated wouldn't
any movement cause more bleeding? I think I'd rather tithe.

Undertoad · 06-03-2003, 12:23 PM

No; another picture, which was taken just before this one, shows the guy inserting the pins. Maybe the bleeding begins when he takes 'em out?

Beletseri · 06-03-2003, 12:53 PM

I'd be thinking ouch ouch ouch rather than allah allah allah.....

juju · 06-03-2003, 01:52 PM

The places that he pierced himself don't really bleed, I don't think.

The idea with sticking metal objects through your face is, if your mind is completely filled with Allah, then you'll feel no pain. So it's like a test of their religious devotion.

I saw a video of this in an anthropology class, and it had 12 year old kids going through this ceremony as a sort of religious graduation. There was a lot of rhythmic drumming and dancing, and then it all built up to a crescendo, whereupon the kids would lick red-hot pokers. It was quite something to see. Apparently, if you're really, really devoted to Allah, you can lick red hot metal and not feel a thing!

goethean · 06-03-2003, 04:45 PM

[insert adolescent mocking from the perspective of Western materialism of a many-centuries-old spiritual tradition here]

xoxoxoBruce · 06-03-2003, 04:55 PM

Quote:

you can lick red hot metal and not feel a thing!

I can see that's possible.......the second time.

Bitmap · 06-03-2003, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
"Speaking in tongues" remains a concept of Christian fundamentalists in this country.

Speaking in tongues is actually a sin when not done in a Godly light. The purpose of miraculous feats like Said things are only for the furtherance (or praise) of God. When speaking in tongues there must be three things: 1 The language must be an actual language, gibberish or just weird noises are not. 2 The speaker must not have studied the language or have any previous knowledge of the language, in order for it to be a miracle. 3 The Person must be using this blessing in a manner that is uplifting to God. A good example would be if a missionary were walking through the jungles of India (any country) and comes across a tribe of people. If the Holy Spirit then enables him to communicate with these people so he might be able to share the gospel with them that would be a miraculous Speaking in Tongues experience.

Just standing in church feeling moved by the music and then blurting out of nonsensical noises is not and does not constitute a Christian fundamentalist ideal. if any thing it is an extremists and ungodly act.

ChrisD · 06-04-2003, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bitmap

1 The language must be an actual language, gibberish or just weird noises are not.

What constitues an 'actual language', one that's been spoken before or is currently spoken someplace in the world? See: Snake Handlers and speaking in tounges. I saw an interesting anthropology film on this, and they most certainly didn't appear to be speaking a known language, let along anything above gibberish and weird noises.

juju · 06-04-2003, 09:40 AM

I saw a video on snake handlers, too. They'd actually throw the snakes across the room at each other, repeatedly! But the funniest thing was, they'd shake the snakes in the vicinity of the people who hadn't contributed money yet, to try to scare them into tithing. Yep, gotta love those Christian fundamentalists.

xoxoxoBruce · 06-04-2003, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Speaking in tongues is actually a sin

See, I told everybody them furiners comin to the US of A was a bunch uh sinners. I told y'all, I did.

Bitmap · 06-04-2003, 10:45 PM

Um.... Snake handlers are extremists. not fundamentalists

Quote:

fun·da·men·tal·ism ** *P***Pronunciation Key**(fnd-mntl-zm)
n. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
Adherence to the theology of this movement.

<i>
------------------------------------------------------------------
man you people suck at engrish</i>

Bitmap · 06-04-2003, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisD
What constitues an 'actual language', one that's been spoken before or is currently spoken someplace in the world?

I think that if the language is spoken at one point but is not spoken now would be fine, but the case of a language being (for example) latin or Greek there would need to be a spiritualy endowed translator, that also must adhere to the same rules that the speaker adhears to.
In the case of snake handlers, they are testing God and it says implicitly in the bible NOT to test God, If they are testing THEIR faith in God then i can think of quite a few better (more sane) ways of testing ones faith.
But as for me, I know the standing of my faith in God and i don't need a snake to reinforce my faith.

06-03-2003, 11:26 AM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	6/3/2003: Iraqi Dervish I've always heard the term "whirling dervish" and never understood it. It turns out that "dervish" is a Muslim sect especially in Turkey and Iran/Iraq. It's a fanatical sect (of Islam? surprise), a branch of the Sufi Islam which seems to be a bit more peaceful than the others (not a reach). I don't know but it seems like the Sufis turn their devotion inwards instead of outwards, and focus on their own behavior instead of the behavior of the rest of us. That's respectable. Sufis believe that their primary goal is purifying their hearts and souls of thoughts other than of Allah, so they take on all kinds of activities that they figure will help them do that. That's what this guy is really trying to do. The "whirling" aspect is similar; not all dervishes do it, but it involves swaying and chanting and slowly building up to a frenzy of prayer. This frenzy often builds up to whirling, thus the term. I can think of similar activity in other religions. The yogic flyers of Transcendental Meditation bounce up and down until they really believe they are levitating. "Speaking in tongues" remains a concept of Christian fundamentalists in this country.

06-03-2003, 12:04 PM	#4
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I wonder why there is no blood. Have they been in so long they've healed? Even if the blood has coagulated wouldn't any movement cause more bleeding? I think I'd rather tithe. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

06-03-2003, 04:45 PM	#8
goethean ethics evolve. Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 60	[insert adolescent mocking from the perspective of Western materialism of a many-centuries-old spiritual tradition here] Last edited by goethean; 06-03-2003 at 05:21 PM.

06-03-2003, 11:27 AM	#2
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Oh, also, that must be one of the finest unibrows ever displayed.

06-03-2003, 11:41 AM	#3
dar512 dar512 is now Pete Zicato Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago suburb Posts: 4,968	The whole dervishkabob thing is strange just to look at. But can you imagine what'll happen when he needs to cough or sneeze? Ewwww.

06-03-2003, 12:23 PM	#5
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	No; another picture, which was taken just before this one, shows the guy inserting the pins. Maybe the bleeding begins when he takes 'em out?

06-03-2003, 12:53 PM	#6
Beletseri Yeah sez you Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 206	I'd be thinking ouch ouch ouch rather than allah allah allah.....

06-03-2003, 01:52 PM	#7
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	The places that he pierced himself don't really bleed, I don't think. The idea with sticking metal objects through your face is, if your mind is completely filled with Allah, then you'll feel no pain. So it's like a test of their religious devotion. I saw a video of this in an anthropology class, and it had 12 year old kids going through this ceremony as a sort of religious graduation. There was a lot of rhythmic drumming and dancing, and then it all built up to a crescendo, whereupon the kids would lick red-hot pokers. It was quite something to see. Apparently, if you're really, really devoted to Allah, you can lick red hot metal and not feel a thing!

06-04-2003, 09:40 AM	#12
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	I saw a video on snake handlers, too. They'd actually throw the snakes across the room at each other, repeatedly! But the funniest thing was, they'd shake the snakes in the vicinity of the people who hadn't contributed money yet, to try to scare them into tithing. Yep, gotta love those Christian fundamentalists.

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