Anyone being affected by Proposition 8?

[Apollo]

Or anyone you know being affected by any anti-gay laws that were passed this election?

I have a coulple friends in California that we're hoping to get married soon...not so much anymore.

Just wondering if there were any other stories out there.

[Radar]

I'm being affected by Prop 8. It's seriously pissing me off. I think each and every single person who voted for it should be deported. If you're stupid enough to think your rights include determining what rights other people have, you don't belong in America because you have no understanding of what rights are or what freedom means.

[Pie]

I'm appalled that the Cali constitution can be modified by a simple majority vote. Doesn't this immediately lead to a "tyranny of the majority" situation? It can only be revoked with a 2/3 majority of the state congress and another majority referendum.

[HungLikeJesus]

Originally Posted by Radar

I'm being affected by Prop 8. It's seriously pissing me off. I think each and every single person who voted for it should be deported. If you're stupid enough to think your rights include determining what rights other people have, you don't belong in America because you have no understanding of what rights are or what freedom means.

Oh the irony.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Pie

Doesn't this immediately lead to a "tyranny of the majority" situation?

Yes.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Radar

I think each and every single person who voted for it should be deported.

Hmmm.... interesting

[Apollo]

Originally Posted by Pie

I'm appalled that the Cali constitution can be modified by a simple majority vote. Doesn't this immediately lead to a "tyranny of the majority" situation? It can only be revoked with a 2/3 majority of the state congress and another majority referendum.

I agree, it makes no sense.

It also angers me that so many people from outside the actual state of California were putting money into the "Vote Yes" campaign. i.e The Mormon and Catholic churchs. Proves once again that religion has more power than it should have.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Apollo

Proves once again that religion has more power than it should have.

Proves that any organized group wields more power - whether its a church, a lobby or anything else.

[Bullitt]

This thread has potential

[Apollo]

I know right? Total win for my first thread!

But seriously, what really sent me over the edge was what happened in Arkansas, not allowing gay couples to adopt. I'm assuming gay marriage is already banned there...so basicaly if you're gay you can't adopt.

I never thought I'd see that happen.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Pie

I'm appalled that the Cali constitution can be modified by a simple majority vote. Doesn't this immediately lead to a "tyranny of the majority" situation? It can only be revoked with a 2/3 majority of the state congress and another majority referendum.

Actually it's being challenged in court right now. Amendments are supposed to be a simple majority, but major changes to the fundamental structure of the Constitution like this one which basically change the Constitution from being an instrument to protect civil rights to being one that violates civil rights, must first be passed by the state legislature and if that happens, it has to get a 2/3 majority of all voters. There's no chance of that happening.

Because Prop 8 didn't follow this procedure, the California Supreme Court will shoot it down.

[Juniper]

Oh, the irony indeed. Like it or not, freedom and democracy means that we've got the right to vote in some really boneheaded stuff.

Living in a country that has such freedom has its benefits, but then, you have to deal with the crap too. On the bright side, you've got the right to express your opinion, no matter how radically that opinion advocates removing others' freedom in the process.

I'm not affected by these types of laws in any way - I don't have any gay friends or relatives - but I still think they're really stupid.

I've said it before: if we live in a world where it's legal for people who barely know each other to get married in Vegas on a whim, then get divorced a few days later -- if they happen to be male and female, respectively -- why the hell do we need to ban people who really love one another and have a serious commitment from getting married just because they're the same gender? Stupid, stupid, stupid.

I'll tell you what it is -- it's Ostrich syndrome. You know, hiding your head in the sand. These people don't want to believe that two same-sex people could possibly actually love each other; they think it's pure deviant lust, so they think they can simply legislate against its expression and it will go away. Stupid.

[Radar]

Our rights don't come from government, therefore government can't take them away. Our rights can't be given, taken, bought, sold, or voted away.

I would like to take back a statement I made earlier. I said all people who voted yes on Prop 8 should be deported. I realize now I was very wrong.

Where would we send them? I wouldn't want to send these people to any other country. I can't think of a country I hate so much, I'd send a bunch of redneck retards there. Rather than deporting them, we should line them up and shoot them dead.

After all, if they've got a right to vote on whether someone else has the right to marry, I have the right to vote to take away their right to life. The civil rights of gay people to marry are no more or less important than the right to life for those who voted to violate their rights.

The civil rights struggle for gays in America is no less important or crucial than was the civil rights struggle of the blacks during the 60s.

[Aliantha]

With marriage becoming more popular again here, I expect this to become an issue here in Australia also.

Currently it's illegal for same sex marriage in any state as far as i know. I think this is wrong and I just can't understand why it matters so much to some people that it should be illegal.

Surely another couple's marriage is not anything to do with anyone else other than the couple involved...regardless of their sex. I would draw the line at people marrying their pets though. I'd have to vote against that I'm afraid...regardless of whether they have a 'god given right' to do so or not.

[Juniper]

Good gravy, Radar. Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel, OK?

The question of "rights" is complex. Are we born with rights by virtue of being human, or is it awarded by the government under which we live?

Enlightenment philosophes would say rights are integral to humanity and that all government is inherently oppressive, by its very nature.

Others, more pragmatically, might say "your rights end where mine begin."

And that is really the purpose of government, isn't it? It's about determining where one person's rights end, and another's begin, and enforcing the balance between the two. Pure, and distilled.

If you are a US resident, you have the "inalienable rights" to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." The First Constitutional Congress (and John Locke) said we should have the right to "life, liberty, and property." And then the Bill of Rights came along to give us some other stuff, like free speech, peaceful assembly, right to bear arms, trial by jury, that kind of thing. Amendments came along giving women the right to vote, etc.

My point, though, is are these all "inalienable rights" or are we just lucky enough to live in a time and place that recognizes them?

What gives you the right to do whatever it is you think you have a right to do? Or who gives you the right?

What is a "right" anyway?

Is it given by God? Whose God? How do you know?

I am not arguing that gays shouldn't be allowed to marry. I said as much. I just think you would be a much better asset to your cause if you had a more logical argument than "we've got the right." 'Cause what you're really saying is "I want this, others want this, and I want more people to agree with us than disagree."