Scouts get pwned

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by glatt

At the national level, they make these rules, but as you get down to the individual level, you don't have uniform agreement with those rules, and in my experience, people sometimes look the other way when it comes to some of the more ridiculous ones.

That's been our experience too. There's even a troop near us that has a girl in it, because as she quite rightfully points out, "Girl scouts are dumb and I want to be a boy scout."

[Lamplighter]

Boy Scouts president calls for end to ban on gay troop leaders (+video)
Christian Science Monitor Cristina Maza - May 21, 2015

The move could be a step toward ending a policy against gay leaders that has increasingly divided the Boy Scouts.

The days of the Boy Scouts long-standing ban on gay troop leaders may be numbered.

Boy Scouts of America president, Robert Gates, called for an end to the controversial ban
while addressing the organization's annual meeting.
The move could be a step toward ending a policy that has divided members
of one of the largest youth organizations in the country, advocates say.

In 2013 the organization revoked its ban on the membership of gay youth.
Nevertheless, openly gay adults are still prohibited from serving in the organization.

The 2014 selection of Mr. Gates, who as United States secretary of Defense
helped end the "don't ask, don't tell" policy that barred openly gay individuals
from serving in the military, was seen by some as an opportunity to revisit the debate
over the organization’s policy.
<snip>

Isn't there some irony in this announcement being delivered by former Sec of Defense,
Robert Gates, who did almost everything he could to avoid/delay the end of DADT in the military.

Maybe he has changed his mind ... ya think ?

[Lamplighter]

So, today may yet be another day...

Boy Scouts Are Poised to End Ban on Gay Leaders
NY Times - ERIK ECKHOLMJULY 26, 2015

The Boy Scouts of America is expected on Monday to end its blanket ban on gay leaders
— a turning point for an organization that has been in turmoil over the issue.
But some scouting groups will still be able to limit leadership jobs to heterosexuals.

But...

To gain the acquiescence of conservative religious groups that sponsor many packs and troops,
like the Mormon and Roman Catholic Churches, the policy will allow church-run units to pick leaders
who agree with their moral precepts.

Here in Oregon, and I suspect elsewhere too, these exclusion policies of the BSA
resulted all local Scouting groups to be excluded from the United Way fund-raising network.

I had hoped that if the Scouts formally changed their ways, they would get back into United Way.
But this hanging on to "exceptions" may still be reason enough to keep them out.

Simply put, these religious groups need to get over their bad selves and
come out of the dark ages when it comes to public organizations like the BSA.

[xoxoxoBruce]

How do packs/troops choose leaders? Eons ago in small town New England, the Den Mother/Scoutmaster job was left to any sucker person who would take it.

[glatt]

In practice, that's my experience too. However, on paper, the charter organization approves all leadership. So theoretically, the church running the troop could require the leader to be straight. All the packs/troops I've been involved in have basically just rubber stamped what the troop parents came up with.

[Happy Monkey]

That's still the case, for the most part, as far as I know.

[BigV]

OF COURSE the chartering organization will

"... allow church-run units to pick leaders who agree with their moral precepts."

duh. The only change I see is that the decision to NOT permit / choose an adult who is gay cannot now be laid at the feet of the national organization "Sorry, rules are rules". The policy doesn't say homosexuality is a qualifying characteristic, only that it is no longer a disqualifying characteristic. I'm ok with that. I think it's still possible that bigots who are homophobes will object to a gay candidate for leadership on the grounds that they don't like gays.

I'm not sure how that's different than some vague "Thanks for your application, we don't see a good fit here, no thank you." y'know? I may well be speaking from a position of a white cis male, but it's the only one I have. But I don't think that a troop should be obligated to accept all applications for leadership positions.

I have been involved with Scouting for about 20 years as an adult and for a little while as a kid. I know gay scouts, I know gay adults. I know gay scouts who've turned 18 and been disqualified to transition into junior adult leadership positions *because of this rule*, which was a stupid rule. Now that's not a problem anymore. Though I know they exist, I haven't met any publicly vocal homophobes. For our Troop and Crew, it means that the choices we've been making all along no longer illustrate the stupidity of the national policy.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I readily admit I don't know shit about the scouts, but I don't understand the term "Church Run". Does the church sponsor the troop, provide meeting space, pay for activities/expenses? I thought a troop was self operating, chartered by, and only answering to a regional council... and of course helicopter parents.

I know gay scouts who've turned 18 and been disqualified to transition into junior adult leadership positions *because of this rule*, which was a stupid rule.

Who enforces this, the regional council? How to they even know? Does someone complain? Do they scan facebook looking for signs of the gay? I mean there's rules against jaywalking, but in most places you'd have to be run over for it to become an issue.

[Lamplighter]

...Who enforces this, the regional council? How to they even know? Does someone complain? Do they scan facebook looking for signs of the gay? I mean there's rules against jaywalking, but in most places you'd have to be run over for it to become an issue.

The courts pay attention when someone files a suit alleging discrimination.

Parents of gay children paid attention when their child was blocked from joining.

Other non-profit organizations that are competing for contributions
via United Way really pay attention when $ is distributed.

Donors to organizations like United Way pay attention when they decide
how much and to which organizations they want to contribute to United Way

United Way officials pay attention when contributions drop for these reasons.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I readily admit I don't know shit about the scouts, but I don't understand the term "Church Run". Does the church sponsor the troop, provide meeting space, pay for activities/expenses? I thought a troop was self operating, chartered by, and only answering to a regional council... and of course helicopter parents.

Each unit (troop/pack.etc.) has a charter organization, which is usually a local church. The charter organization "owns" the unit. Is the legal owner of the bank account and all equipment and approves all leaders. Often provides meeting and storage space. Does not usually fund the unit. In my experience, the charter organization is usually pretty hands off. But if it wants to flex its muscle, it has a lot of muscle to flex.

The district, council, and national scout organizations help to administer the program, do training, plan regional events, run camps, etc.

[BigV]

Here's what I cribbed from BSA's website about chartering organizations:

The Boy Scouts of America makes Scouting available to our nation’s youth by chartering community organizations to organize and operate Cub Scout packs, Boy Scout troops, Varsity Scout teams, Venturing crews and Sea Scout ships for boys and young men and women. These chartered organizations manage the units and control the program of activities to support their goals and objectives. When community organizations establish a new unit, they must take these two important actions to ensure a quality Scouting program:

1. Select leadership.
The head of the chartered organization appoints a chartered organization representative to provide leadership in the selection of a unit committee of parents and organization members that will provide overall supervision for
the unit’s program. The committee selects the adult unit leaders who will work with the youth. The chartered organization representative also is a voting member of the local council and may serve as a member of the district committee.

2. Provide a meeting place and promote a good program.
The chartered organization arranges for appropriate meeting facilities for the unit and promotes through its committee the full use of the program, including outdoor experiences, advancement, recognitions, and, in particular, Scouting’s values.

OUR unit, Troop and Crew 100, is chartered by "The Parents Club" (I might be missing the name a little bit, sorry). Basically, the parents of the scouts in the troop have come together and created the charter them/ourselves. We have a Chartered Organization Representative, and that person is key in creating the other moving pieces as the quote describes. In practice, it is the parents that organize the business end of the troop and the troop's activities like rent on a meeting space, planning fundraisers, etc. As for the operation of the troop, that falls to the scouting leadership and to the boys and girls themselves.

Your question about how is a rule like the one recently reversed enforced is a good one and your instincts are correct. It's impossible to enforce unless both sides get publicly dug in about their respective positions. Here in Seattle, there was a church that chartered a troop that refused to dismiss an openly gay scout leader last year. The BSA revoked the church's charter, effectively ending the troop. Some key facts in this ugly episode was the public knowledge of the leader's sexuality, the church's refusal to dismiss him, and some unknown (to me) butthurt parent that complained. I find it difficult to express clearly how the rule is stupid beyond "homophobia is stupid". In an explicitly declared situation like the one linked to above, it's easy to see how the (stupid) wheels would turn. But absent such a declaration by a gay leader, enforcement would seem to fall into the witch hunt/spanish inquisition territory. That's bullshit.

glatt and Happy Monkey's remarks about accepting help from those willing to give it are true in my experience too. And I sincerely believe that "the gay" has fuckall to do with the quality of a youth leader. Homosexuality isn't taught, it's not contagious, it's not an indicator of pedophilia, none of that bullshit. Being gay doesn't make or break a good leader, it's irrelevant, just as heterosexuality is irrelevant. The rule was irrelevant, except when it interfered with units trying to provide a quality program for young people and stupid people invoked this stupid rule.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Thanks you guys. I'm getting an edumacation and beginning to understand the back story of the changes going on in the BSA and the laws. I think I'm getting a handle on the roots of how politics got so fucked up.

[chrisinhouston]

Originally Posted by glatt

Each unit (troop/pack.etc.) has a charter organization, which is usually a local church. The charter organization "owns" the unit. Is the legal owner of the bank account and all equipment and approves all leaders. Often provides meeting and storage space. Does not usually fund the unit. In my experience, the charter organization is usually pretty hands off. But if it wants to flex its muscle, it has a lot of muscle to flex.

The district, council, and national scout organizations help to administer the program, do training, plan regional events, run camps, etc.

This was the basis for the BSA denying any responsibility for leaders who abused kids up until the mid 80's. They argued that it was the chartered partner's responsibility to vet leaders. The problem was that the BSA national HQ would keep records on leaders accused of abuse but not step up to disqualify or report them to authorities which left the abusers free to move to another unit when they need to. There were many lawsuits against the BSA in the 20 years or so leading up to the change of position on leadership. The BSA instituted new training called "Youth Protection" to help units, partners and other leaders protect kids from abuse and cull out abusive leaders. There is a book called "Scout's Honor" which details the history of abuse in the BSA.

[chrisinhouston]

I was a very involved volunteer in the BSA from 1980 to about 2000 when I pretty much quit. I started as a Tiger Cub leader when my oldest son wanted to join at age 7. I held just about every position in his and his brother's pack and then later in the troop where I was an assistant SM. I was on the District Committee and earned the District Award of Merit. I was on Council committees and was awarded the council's highest award, the Silver Beaver. I think when I left I had 10 or 11 square knots which are the BSA awards for various things. I even attended the World Jamboree in Chile in 1998 where I was on the international staff as one of the photographers. 2 of my 3 sons are Eagle Scouts.

I got tired of the BS. BSA was always preaching that they were just there for materials and training but in the end it kept coming down to increasing the number of units, membership and selling subscriptions to Boys Life. As District Chairman I saw many instances of our District Executive (the paid guy with BSA) making up numbers for "ghost units" that really did not exist. I saw a lot of behind the scenes stuff that turned me off.

At the World Jamboree I saw how other Scouts from around the world were more inclusive. They allowed co-ed units and a great variety of members with no prohibitions on anyone. The US BSA is one of the few that still uses the church sponsored model which I think has been part of the problems.

After the SCOTUS ruling in BSA vs Dale I just decided to put my energy elsewhere.

[Lamplighter]

Although it is a step in the right direction, the "new" policy of the BSA with regards to religious groups
will be continue to be a stumbling point across the breadth of Scouting in the USA.
... not just a policy issue, but a legal issue and a financial issue.

The following article is a pretty good discussion, starting with the LDS church,
and continuing with other legal, religious, and social leaders.

Mormons hint they may bolt Boy Scouts
CBS/AP July 28, 2015, 4:08 AM

<snip>
The Mormon church, which sponsors more Scout units that any other organization,
said it was "deeply troubled" by the decision. Church officials suggested they
would look into the possibility of forming their own organization to replace the Boy Scouts.

Several denominations that collectively sponsor close to half of all Scout units
- including the Roman Catholic Church, the Mormon church and the Southern Baptist Convention -
have been apprehensive about ending the ban on gay adults.

The BSA's top leaders have pledged to defend the right of any church-sponsored units
to continue excluding gays as adult volunteers.
But that assurance has not satisfied some conservative church leaders.

But...

"It's hard for me to believe, in the long term, that the Boy Scouts will allow religious groups
to have the freedom to choose their own leaders," said the Rev. Russell Moore,
president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission.<snip>

Stuart Upton, a lawyer for the LGBT-rights group Lambda Legal, questioned whether
the BSA's new policy to let church-sponsored units continue to exclude gay adults would be sustainable.

And over the past few years...

The BSA faced potential lawsuits in New York and other states if it continued to enforce its ban,
which had been upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000.

Since then, the exclusionary policy has prompted numerous major corporations
to suspend charitable donations to the Scouts, and has strained relations
with some municipalities that cover gays in their non-discrimination codes.

Like several other major youth organizations, the Boy Scouts have experienced
a membership decline in recent decades. Current membership, according to the BSA,
is about 2.4 million boys
<snip>

.