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Old 05-05-2011, 09:40 AM   #121
DanaC
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This has been a really interesting discussion.
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:43 AM   #122
Jill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post

and Jill, sorry, I had not seen all the other shit going on and apologise if I made anything worse. I was truly just interested in it because you started the thread about it. I try to stay away from the politics threads for exactly this reason but you seemed like a rational person to discuss stuff with. I am ignorant about American politics -and a lot of Brit politics these days too- but I don't find it helpful to be told so and then given political labels when I question, so I stay away. yup chicken. I didn't mean to pile on in any way shape or form, and I am sorry for giving that impression.
No worries, monster. I should have known that you didn't mean it personally, and I shouldn't have allowed the nonsense from the other thread to spill over into this one. It was really my bad for overreacting and not just taking your question at face value. FT(not Congressional)R, I posted a reply to what went down in that thread, here.
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Originally Posted by DanaC View Post

It is just as important to a research historian to be able to get at the lies that were told as well as the facts. It is just as useful to know the rumours and the bluster as it is to know the votes and the results.

Not all history is about setting down the facts. Some of it is an attempt to get a grip on what people were thinking, talking about, preoccupied with and playing politics around. Political shennanigans tell us a great deal about the mentality of the time we're looking at.
Politically speaking, a good example of why an official Congressional Record of votes on Resolutions can be important, is to look at the Resolution to institute Martin Luther King Day as a National Holiday.
"In 1983, CBC member Rep. Katie Hall (D-IN) re-introduced the King Holiday legislation, H.R. 3706. In the House of Representatives and in the Senate, the bill was hotly contested. The major issues raised in the House was that the passage of the bill would elevate Dr. King to the status of the founding father, George Washington and that it would be too costly to grant federal workers an additional holiday.

"The holiday bill passed the House on a vote of 338-90 in August 1983. Despite bi-partisan support and support from the Senate leadership, Sen. Jesse Helms (R-NC) led a bitter opposition to the bill in the Senate. Calling Dr. King a Communist, Helms circulated negative material in an effort to defeat the bill. Nevertheless, the Senate approved the bill by a vote of 78-22 in October 1983."

http://www.avoiceonline.org/mlk/legislation.html
Why is the Congressional Record of the votes on that Resolution important today (well, 3 years ago, actually)?

Then-Presidential candidate John McCain was one of the 22 Senators who voted against that Resolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaC View Post

This has been a really interesting discussion.
I, for one, am very glad it has turned into that! Thank you for helping make it so!
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:18 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
...I appreciate your opinion.

...And most participants.
I refuse to participate in any thread that would have me as a poster.
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:18 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by footfootfoot View Post
I refuse to participate in any thread that would have me as a poster.
Wily one.

I'm putting my sig back.
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:37 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill View Post
"House Republicans say they have no plans to follow the Senate in passing a resolution honoring the military mission that killed Osama bin Laden.

"The decision by GOP leaders follows new rules they enacted in January scrapping the tradition of congratulatory measures, which they complained clogged up the House floor.

"The Senate on Tuesday passed a resolution, 97-0, commending “the men and women of the United States Armed Forces and the United States intelligence community for the tremendous commitment, perseverance, professionalism and sacrifice they displayed in bringing Osama bin Laden to justice.” The measure commended President Obama and reaffirmed the Senate’s commitment “to disrupting, dismantling and defeating al Qaeda.” It also recognized former President George W. Bush’s efforts after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks."

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/15...h-a-resolution
Gee, what happened to that supposed Republican patriotism, rah-rah USA, Support Our Troops stuff? Where's the flag-waving when it actually counts for something?

Shame on them.
On the other hand, you do not make a big deal when someone shoots a mad dog.

And that is what happened here. As my friend said, "they took out the trash".

Also, there is not much a bunch of fat politicians can do to honor men such as these seals. It is like a mouse honoring a lion.
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:52 PM   #126
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Uday, I agree totally.
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:57 PM   #127
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I do too, to be honest. Do I need to hand in my bleeding heart liberal card?
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:01 PM   #128
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Montie has been healed of her possession by evil liberal demons. Hallelujah! One more has followed the light to enlightenment
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:23 PM   #129
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Okay, here's the deal. I honestly couldn't care less if there's a freaking Resolution on record or not. If the subject had never come up, I assure you I wouldn't have even given it a second thought.

But once the Senate came together and passed a non-partisan Resolution, I thought, "How nice." Then I heard that John Boehner had defiantly refused to do so, and I was outraged.

So why was I outraged that Boehner refused to do something I wouldn't have cared had he not done in the first place?

Because once it was "out there" and the Senate had passed theirs, it became crystal clear to me that John Boehner was turning this into yet another ugly stab at our President because G-d forbid they acknowledge something he succeeded at. It wasn't about expediency or time better spent on more important legislation (they've only passed 3 fucking bills in the 4 months they've been in control as it is). It was an intentional slap in the face to our President. It was a "Screw You" if there ever was one. And I find that reprehensible.

That's why.
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:55 PM   #130
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And you just so happen to some by the knowledge that this happened. Insignificant as you admit it is, you just happen to have heard about it. Not as though you had time to comb through a massive catalogue of the day's events from around the world, is it? Something more like, you turned on the TV/Radio or opened a newspaper and this OUTRAGE this BLOOD-BOILING OUTRAGE just, coincidentally (because nobody really plans what's in the news, do they?) just coincidentally happened to enter into your conciousness and induce this MOTHERFUCKING OUTRAGE AT THESE GODDAMN BASTARDS WHO ARE AT IT AGAIN!!!1 But of course you're not being manipulated or anything. You CHOSE to know about this, right? This pointless event which means nothing to you, and couldn't have possibly had any substantive effect on anything, ever. You CHOSE (right?) to be SO GODDAMN OUTRAGED at this non-event that there was no purpose in you hearing about. But of course, you're not being manipulated.



Right?
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Old 05-06-2011, 01:20 AM   #131
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You know, it is possible for grown adults to hear or read a news story and formulate an opinion based solely on facts without having been "manipulated."

Did you bother to read the article I linked to right there in the OP? If you had, you would have found differing opinions on the issue being represented by Democrats in the house, one of whom said:
Quote:
But, Rep. Jim Moran (D-Va.), whose district includes the Pentagon, said he didn’t have a problem with the GOP decision.

“That’s their call,” he said. “It doesn’t make a whole lot of difference whether we vote for a resolution or not. I’m sure the military knows how supportive of them and how proud of them we all are.”
So tell me, was he, or the writer of the piece trying to "manipulate" me into thinking it was no big deal?

Jesus FUCK you've got some raging assholes on this forum. Perhaps my time away was best left that way.

Sorry guys, I'm outta here again. This isn't the kind of political debate I was seeking out. This is just plain rudeness, and frankly, I have no desire to put up with it.

Peace, Out.
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Old 05-06-2011, 03:31 AM   #132
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OK; but, we get to keep Casper as our free gift with your trial offer.
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:06 AM   #133
Aliantha
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Stick around Jill. I need some friends. Apparently mine are all arseholes.
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:55 AM   #134
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:37 AM   #135
DanaC
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Oh, well done People. The Cellar strikes again.

Why the nastiness and aggression? Someone makes perfectly reasonable points and gets shat on again.

Ffs.

@ Flint: that post is so arrogant. You've basically accused Jill of having no mind of her own and only being interested because she's been manipulated by the press. And not only arrogant but aggressive too.

Personally, I think she made some interesting points. Her arguments stack up more firmly than the counter-argument (to me) in this thread: I have not been bombarded by news on this issue. I am basing my response entirely on what's in this thread. I have seen not one single news report about this issue. It is entirely possible to form this opinion without having it shoved fully formed into your brain by journalists. Try tackling the actual issue instead of making personal attacks.

Jesus fucking Christ.

I'm millimetres away from leaving myself right now. I am so sick of this shit.
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Last edited by DanaC; 05-06-2011 at 05:46 AM.
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