Vaccination & epidemic

[orthodoc]

The seizure mentioned in the risk sheet is caused by fever, i.e. a febrile seizure. Some children are susceptible to them and will get them when their temp goes up. They are not epileptic seizures. Stressful for parents but they can happen with any fever - due to a cold, teething, etc.

I meant to say last night that immunization can always be done; it's not an all or nothing decision. There are schedules for vaccination at any age. If anyone is interested in more information, I'd suggest the vaccine pages at www.cdc.gov for a start.

[orthodoc]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

... instead of affording me the same respect, she chose to lecture me on the benefits of vaccines ... she chose to talk down to me as though I were ignorant about this topic.

LJ, I apologize for losing my temper and lecturing you rather than providing information friend-to-friend. You're not ignorant, you're not stupid, and it's clear that you care very very much about your children's wellbeing. You listened to the information that your wife gathered at the time, and you and Jinx decided how to best protect your children's interests.

Being passionate about my understanding doesn't make it acceptable to make you feel that you've been assaulted or judged. That's how I came across, although I didn't mean it that way - but it's how I came across. I'm sorry.

I hope you'll accept my apology. You and I both want the best for your children, for my children, for the rest of us. We're well-meaning people. I hope we can share information and discuss concerns and opinions without alienating each other.

[Undertoad]

Clod said only about a week ago that I challenge because I care, and that is the case. Any other posters, I would simply ignore. We had no idea our bully compatriot was capable of this level of emotion and I had no concept that I was capable of inflicting it.

You are free to kick my ass next time we get together because I have found a way to be a dick to a friend. I don't have many friends IRL and this is one reason why.

[Aliantha]

I have a flail somewhere around here. It's good for flagellation.

I'm sure everyone knows that no one meant to make anyone feel bad. Remember, love means never having to say you're sorry.

[orthodoc]

UT, I also challenge because I care. I find that, at 53, I still have to curb my temper and my Aspieness enough to not hurt the people I care about. That doesn't say much for me, but I hope that, in the end, Ali's right and we can all forgive each other.

[tw]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

I recall saying that I knew I was not going to change her mind. But, instead of affording me the same respect, she chose to lecture me on the benefits of vaccines, and she chose to state that I smeared all hard working physicians by questioning their motivation. She chose to talk down to me as though I were ignorant about this topic. I'm not.

First, this is exactly what I am talking about. Orthodoc provided facts. Those 'feeling' are what many adult do when they added their own emotions and bases to what was obviously a post of facts.

If anyone deserves insult and an apology, it is Orthodoc. Since she has provided facts that coincide with well understood research. And because the research done by lumberjim is completely not apparent.

Orthodoc has done what many have to do when the more easily emotional get emotional. Apologize so as to be political. But in reality, these fears of vaccines is not supported by any facts with perspective. In a logical world, the persion making conclusions without such facts (by only providing credibility to Jenny McCarthy and other anti-social types) would apologize for contributing to myths, hearsay, and lies.

If lumberjim was concerned with the tone, that is the first indication that he is ignoring what is only and most important. The facts.

Second, for some reason, lumberjim is concerned with changing opinions. As if victory was the purpose or important. Those are somewhere between secondary and irrelevant. Facts and perspective are relevant. Does not matter that he does not like the facts. As if the facts were somehow an insult because he did something different. Making mistakes and therefore learning are what humans learn to become adults. Learning how not to have 'motivated reasoning' is not easy and is essential. Emotion is a symptom of 'motivated reasoning'.

A benchmark was provided to determine whether one is being logical. Reasons devoid of perspective (ie the numbers) is a classic example of 'motivated reasoning'. An indication of thought based in emotional, and that junk science is being used for conclusions.

Orthodoc has no reason to apologize. She did what adult are suppose to do - provide facts no matter how it may make the emtional feel. "I killed him because he dissed me" is another example of adults acting like children. People reasoning emotionally rather than reading only what is important - hard facts. Too many people worry about being dissed - like a child.

I think a famous politician once said, "Emotion is the first indication he has already lost the argument." Not to others. It should be obvious (a benchmark) to the one who feels dissed.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by tw

and other anti-social types

TW, you're adorable. Don't ever change.

[tw]

Jenny McCarthy, at a minimum, owes us all an apology for causing death to so many infants. She won't. She does not learn from her mistakes. Apparently more concerned with 'winning'. She lied. She 'knows' she was decieved. Or at least should know if thinking like an adult.

[Clodfobble]

Can you give me numbers, tw, on exactly how many infants have died in the developed world of vaccine-preventable diseases since Jenny McCarthy started speaking out? For I know you would not just use some indefinable quantity like "so many," without numbers to back it up.

[Lamplighter]

I realize the intent of your question, but here is one easy find...

Wikipedia:

Before publication of Wakefield's findings, the inoculation rate for MMR
in the UK was 92%; after publication, the rate dropped to below 80%.
In 1998, there were 56 measles cases in the UK; by 2008, there were 1348 cases,
with 2 confirmed deaths.

I believe there was one death in the US due to measles in 2012,
but I leave it to the reader to document that one way or the other.

Once again, I believe using "death" as the only end point of risk
is too stringent for making a decision, either for public health or a parent.

[jimhelm]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Clod said only about a week ago that I challenge because I care, and that is the case. Any other posters, I would simply ignore. We had no idea our bully compatriot was capable of this level of emotion and I had no concept that I was capable of inflicting it.

You are free to kick my ass next time we get together because I have found a way to be a dick to a friend. I don't have many friends IRL and this is one reason why.

This level of emotion?

Frustration an emotion? Disappointment?

The only thing I've said in this thread was that we did what we did and why. The rest has been defending myself from repeated attacks and judgements.

I've pointed out that you were frustrating me by ignoring what I said. And just in case you still haven't gotten that, it is this:

We DID do as much research as was possible about this. We DID weigh the risk vs reward carefully. We chose the path that presented less risk at that time. A course that could be altered when more knowledge became available. It is not too late for my kids to have inoculations. If there comes a day when we feel that the reward outweighs the risk, either because the vaccines become less risky, or because the diseases become more likely to contract, I am not opposed to having them done.

Read that three times, tw, you cocksucker. You just keep on ignoring the facts I present, and focus on the flashes of anger. Why? Motivated reasoning. You expect me to be childish and emotional, so that's what you see. If you had read my posts three times, you'd have noticed that I kept repeating that no one was getting the disease they wanted to immunize against, and some people were being hurt by the vaccine. Those are facts. You say ortho presented facts and numbers. I must have missed those. Just because her opinion coincides with yours does not make it fact. She also said I smeared all doctors. Is that a fact? Or did you lie to make your point? Don't answer. Please.

Here's a tip for you, tw: The transmission of information depends on both the signal and the reception. The way you construct your posts is borderline ridiculous. If it requires three readings to comprehend, then you need to adjust your signal. If people don't understand what you're saying because it is so convoluted that they get a headache from it, they will simply skim it and forget it. You're not hearing what I'm saying, but that's par for the course. Read? You only write.

Anyway, Tony. You decided to pick shit and ask what kind of degree jinx has, when you know good and goddamn well that she has none. Nor do I. And you asked that question with the intent of invalidating her qualification to offer advice or cast judgement on this topic. Thing is, I have offered no advice, cast no judgement about vaccinating.

You'll say that was just in response to my asking about orthos degree. But I was actually asking because I didn't know the answer. The answer is that she is a family doctor, with experience on this topic. Good answer. I respect her opinion more knowing that, and understand her reaction better. But she was still trying to convince me that I had been wrong headed and reckless. She sees that now, I think. Thank you for that apology, ortho. I'm sorry if you felt like I accused you and your colleagues of collusion with big pharma. I only intended to highlight the way that money drives the medical industry just as it does all of them. Family practice doctors, in my opinion, are motivated more by altruistic goals than financial ones.
As for happy monkey and the jenny McCarthy shot....

Here's what you're doing.... It is generally accepted that she is a cuckoo bird. An MTV personality. Easily discredited and ridiculed. So, you want to align her with us because if she agrees with us, then we must be cuckoo too. Well, for the third time, at the time we made our decision, miss McCarthy was not involved in the debate. She was probably still on MTV, or shooting porn. So, that's extra shitty of you. Not only is it a crap way to argue, it's dishonest.

Yours was the comment that put me over the top on this. Congrats.
Prior to that, you did not participate in recent discussion. Your chiming in at that point with that reference said to me that no one is actually hearing what I'm saying, so why bother saying any more? I'm just going around in circles defending my decision from people that are not actually my friends. Fruitless.

That's the difference between real life friends and online friends. Online, there is still that element of performance that makes us want to win an argument. So we say shitty things we would never say in person.

I am dissapoint.

[Undertoad]

Anyway, Tony. You decided to pick shit and ask what kind of degree jinx has, when you know good and goddamn well that she has none.

Not only did I not know, I said that I didn't know, directly, in my question.

Here are the words I actually used:

"I honestly don't know."

I didn't know. Honestly. Which is kind of a testament to her, in a way.

And you asked that question with the intent of invalidating her qualification to offer advice or cast judgement on this topic.

YES I DID, AND I WOULD ALWAYS DO SO. It's highly relevant to our discussion, and you know it. It doesn't make her less of a person, doesn't mean she's not whip-smart, doesn't mean she couldn't be right, and BTW, it doesn't address you AT ALL.

I'm very smart, studied STEM fields at a highly competitive college, and I CANNOT EASILY READ MEDICAL STUDIES. It's a long hard slog. For one thing, understanding those studies pretty much requires a deep understanding of statistics, which is coursework I've never had.

I never attacked you. In fact I laced my posts with compliments to you. I truly think you are a better person than I am, and I will say so. You have done more for this world than I have, including raising two awesome and, yes, healthy kids.

But in this thread you created an emotional minefield where every step someone took became an attack on you. Make a dum analogy? That's a personal attack on you. Make a smarter one? That's an attack too. Question - not even attack - the stbx wife? That's somehow an attack on you. STAHP!

Don't take this post as an attack: it's easy, because it isn't, unless I think it is; and I am saying it isn't; and as we are friends, I hope you will take me at my word.

[lumberjim]

MAN, you're just not getting it.

nevermind. it's fine.

I'm gonna go vaccinate my kids now.

[sexobon]

Don't forget to get yourself the shingles vaccine, you know, just in case you have to do any roofing.

[lumberjim]

Yes. ... that and a helmet. Because. ....