Finally a change for the Better.

[tw]

How many mention or even know of an attack and bombing in Istanbul's airport. Why? Just another mass murder justified by assault weapons and bombs. Even the NRA quietly approves.

But something fundamental has must happened if reporter sources are accurately informed. Middle East has not yet seen enough deaths, murders, massacres, and genocide - unless of course one is emotional. Finally Erdogan has changed opinion. No longer are Kurds (Syrian, Turk, and Iraqi) evil. Isis (better known as Daesh because insulting the intellectually naive and emotional is always good) has repeatedly attacked and killed Turks; even though Turkey has (quietly) supported Daesh. Erdogan has finally admitted Daesh (not Kurds) are the threat.

This has taken intelligent world leaders (ie Obama) years to make obvious. Daesh is a threat to Middle East nations. Not a threat to Americans. Good luck trying to tell that to wacko extremist Americans and to naive world leaders of that region.

Wars (like contracts) must have only two parties. As was well understood even 2000 years before Columbus was born. Anyone foolish entering into a war that has three completely different insurgents, multiple other parties (ie Kurds) and many powers who want to pretend it does not exist - such war can only beooime another VietNam or Mission Accomplished.

Every informed American knows any active American response in this type of conflict would only mean another American military defeat. If Turkey can not even decide who is an enemy, then America's must stay out (other than as a technical supporter).

Should Turkey's change cause America or Nato changes? Of course not. Actions by Saudi Arabia and especially Israel - both nations promoting unproductive reaction - must change. Even Kuwait has not acted in a responsible manner despite that nation being 'saved' by an American led coalition.

Responsible actions cannot happen in Syria and Iraq until Turkey gets its head on straight. No war can be won until two sides are defined by all combatants. That means even defining Russia either as an ally or enemy.

Today is a benchmark. Erdogan finally decided to call his enemy an enemy. But it took hundreds of victim in an airport to make that power broker appreciate his mistake. BTW, that is how all world events happen. Innocent people (in hundreds or tens of millions) must die before leaders finally appreciate reality. Either by suffering death or by sitting at a peace table.

[Griff]

You may have actually hit on something here.

[classicman]

Tommy "Wars must have only two parties."
Um, no. Most have more than two and by the way, you contradicted yourself in the very same paragraph.

[tw]

Erdogan finally decided to call his enemy an enemy. But it took hundreds of victim in an airport to make that power broker appreciate his mistake.

Apparently he did not do enough. Erdogan demonstrates what happens when a leader is corrupted by power - typically after ten years. He began favoring religious extremist rhetoric rather than adult logic. He gave tacit support to Isis rather while literally destroying any restored and productive relations with the Kurds. He had difficulty deciding who was a threat and who was an ally.

In his early day, while acting secular, he had done so much good for the Turkey economy by continuing reformed initiated by his successor many years previously. Named European of the year in 2004. He restored relations with Greece including a pipeline and a settlement of the Cyprus dispute. He banned the 4th ID from using Turkey to invade Iraq in 2003. He addressed major problems in Turkey's health care. He made peace with the Kurds. Applied to join the EU.

Starting in 2010, he began preaching concepts based in religion - that even American wacko extremists would appreciate. Repeated censorship caused Turkey's EU bid to be withdrawn. In 2013, a suspected $100 billion fraud involved many in his government including his own son. Erdogan was number two on Simon Wiesenthal Center's list of anti-semetics. In 2014, laws were created to censor internet access and web sites - even Twitter was specifically listed as a threat to Turkey. Censorship permitted without an court's approval and even in contradiction to court orders. Also discovered were details of many cooperative meetings between Erdogan officials and ISIS leadership by American special forces in 2014. Even a statue dedicated to reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia was destroyed on Erdogan's orders.

One would think this would have cause voters to turn on him. He even promoted hate declaring that being Armenian was uglier than being Georgian. Instead he was reelected in 2014 by an overwhelming 51%. Significant voter fraud has since been confirmed. An unexplained power outages occurred in many areas where Erdogan had little support. Outages throughout the country blamed on cats getting into transformers.

By 2015, 74 of 100 US Senators had signed a letter accusing Erdogan of deviating from the principles of democracy. Obviously those deviations were that severe. He went to northern Cyprus in July to celebrate the of Turkey's 1974 invasion.

By 2016, peaceful anti-Erdogan demonstrations were banned. Imprisoned journalists remained jailed after ordered free by the Supreme Court. People were being imprisoned for public criticism of Erdogan.

Once a terrorist attack killed 100 in Istanbul, then he decided to relent on some of his dictatorial decrees. He (it is assumed) orders support of Isis suspended. He ordered relations with Israel to be restore. He even apologized to Russia for shooting down a plane that had violated Turkish airspace - after it had left that airspace. In short, he realized he needed some allies.

Probably much more to this story to justify a military coup. The transition from reformist and progressive leader to dictator is typical of what happens when one is enthralled by too much power for too long - and discovers he is no longer as popular. Clearly in Syria since 2009, he has only made thing worse by not joining regional powers to resolving the situation - by literally playing everyone against another for self serving purposed. And so a military coup has started.

Does it have universal support? Depends on how much we still do not know about his change from benevolent leader to a corrupt and misguided one.

[sexobon]

Obama says to support Erdogan and reject the coup. Case closed.

[tw]

Originally Posted by sexobon

Obama says to support Erdogan and reject the coup. Case closed.

Erdogan finally decided to call his enemy an enemy. Too few and too little too late. Coup is not how it should be done. Obama is right. But no longer relevant in Turkey. Time to admit their reality and deal with what may happen. That means understanding how they got there. No soundbyte is relevant.

[BigV]

Actually, Obama says to support the elected government. And in a heavy 1984-ish accent, the coup leaders/propgandists are saying "support the rule of law".

As an aside, you consider soundbites to be irrelevant at your peril, tw. They *do* matter to people whose actions make a difference. It may not be a difference you or I or sexobon would want to see happen, but disregarding them is just willful ignorance on your part. And willful ignorance is stupid.

Don't be stupid.

[sexobon]

Obama has all the facts. That's what we pay him to do, get all the facts. Obama has all the facts and Obama says to support Erdogan and reject the coup. He said it to the world and he said it unconditionally. Understanding how they got there is irrelevant. Case closed means case closed.

[BigV]

you're just makin shit up.

whatever man.

[sexobon]

Case
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closed.

[classicman]

Dear Leader has spoken.
Do what you are told.
Believe what you are told.
Do not question his authority.

[tw]

Erdogan can fly back to Turkey unchallenged by military planes. Deplane at an airport unchallenged by soldiers. Coup was over before it started. Early reports suggested it was poorly planned. Those reports apparently were accurate.

Turkey has a leadership problem. Current administration is no longer working for national interests. Symptoms of that mismanagement were observed even in Kobane some years ago.

Ignore the wackos behind the curtain.

[sexobon]

Case closed.

[tw]

Originally Posted by sexobon

Case closed.

... in your naive face.

[sexobon]

Obama had facts. Facts said coup would already be over. Tw had no clue. Obama said reject coup. Coup is over. Tw is irrelevant. Case closed.