12/26/2002: Korean peninsula - Page 3

slang · 12-30-2002, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Griff

Don't make me go all middle child on you kids.

What's that mean Griff?

Undertoad · 12-30-2002, 10:11 PM

I see: we're into Clinton-esque "what is the meaning of the word 'belief'" semantics now.

OK, let me ask a better question -

The UN negotiated the cease-fire that created the demilitarized zone that the North Koreans are being accused of violating. The North Koreans are violating UN treaties and throwing out UN nuclear inspectors and disabling UN cameras. So why shouldn't the administration just let the UN address it?

That is, after all, your position on Iraq... is it not?

elSicomoro · 12-30-2002, 10:29 PM

You should receive an answer soon...it will ramble on for 8 or 9 paragraphs, and not directly answer your question at all. By the time you're finished reading the reply, you'll forget what you asked in the first place.

Griff · 12-31-2002, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by slang

What's that mean Griff?

Middle children, of which I am one, have this often annoying habit of inserting themselves into other peoples arguments in an attempt to reduce conflict. Whenever I see something headed away from discussion an toward flamewar I get this difficult to suppress urge to make everybody be nice. It usually asserts itself when it looks like two regulars are on the edge of nuclear annialation ala Nic Name and David but I think tw and syc have thicker skins so moderation isn't called for. Anyway, just another glimpse into griffs diseased brain.

(btw the radar/cairo diversion is somehow exempt so I feel free to introduce fisionable material)

elSicomoro · 12-31-2002, 01:23 PM

I know what you mean G, at least on the mediation part. But there are just times where someone that is just asking for it, like tw, comes along...and I can't resist.

And don't you even think about interfering with the Chucklehead twins.

tw · 12-31-2002, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
The UN negotiated the cease-fire that created the demilitarized zone that the North Koreans are being accused of violating. The North Koreans are violating UN treaties and throwing out UN nuclear inspectors and disabling UN cameras. So why shouldn't the administration just let the UN address it?

N VietNamese attack two US destroyers in international waters. Clearly that justifies massive air attack on military installations in N VietNam. Gulf of Tonkin resolution resulted. That is until the details are uncovered. But extremist militant Americans did not want the public to know such facts. 50,000 America lives were wasted as a result.

US destroyers were running DeSoto patrols to sabatoge N VietNam. US destroyers were operating inside their territorial waters when N VietNam patrol boats attacked. US was running covert military actions against the N Vietnamese - a country we were not even at war with. Whole different conclusion once facts (details) are provided.

Same applies to how Undertoad characterized current Korean problems. If N Korea was building plutonium bombs, then they would kick out UN inspectors immediately. Not even bother with cameras that are useless without those inspectors. Secretly remove those fuel rods to remote locations where secret gas centrifuges could extract plutonium. Never say anything about what they are doing.

But instead they asked UN inspectors to leave weeks later in a hope that it would correct a serious international problem. They first announced in advance, then intentionally disabled cameras to make a point. Then days later removed seals on fuel rods - making another public announcement. With UN inspectors encouraged to watch, they installed fuel rods into a reactor - after announcing, accurately, they needed the electricity. With each step, they first publically announced what they were doing. Each step was followed by delay so that international diplomats had an oppurtunity to resond. Why? What kind of covert action is that? Is that any way to build a nuclear bomb?

Of course a militant, right wing president distorts all this saying the reactor is restarted to make plutoniums. He counts on us being as misinformed as sycamore.

Why put fuel rods so that everyone knows where they are - fully exposed to military attack and difficult to recover? Why put rods where they cannot be used to create bomb material? Why announce each step, publically, in advance? Militant extremists would have you ignore those details. Undertoads summary also ignores basic facts. George Jr did something to start the above events. Of course. Just like in Gulf of Tonkin, too many never bothered to first learn these details.

N Korea is doing everything wrong if they are building a plutonium bomb. They are doing everything right if their intent is as the AP states:

Quote:

Withdrawing from the pact means the impoverished North is intent on raising pressure on the United States to negotiate over energy sources -- and is prepared to turn its back on its international obligations to do so.

Bottom line is the current problem is a disagreement between George Jr and the government of N Korea - which we believe is still run by Kim Jung Il. UN inspectors are only pawns. (to make it obvious: this paragaph explicity answers the Undertoad question).

If one is so certain N Korea is intentionally subverting the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and UN inspections in order to make war, then Undertoad or Sycamore can explain what George Jr did to trigger this whole fiasco. sycamore will avoid every oppurtunity to fill us with his knowledge. His shortage of knowledge is why he, instead, insults. However he has an oppurtunity to prove me wrong. What did George Jr do to trigger this event?

That will be difficult for those in love with George Jr to admit. Love makes one blind. Maybe. Let's see how much sycamore knows about recent events that lead up to this conflict. Let sycamore explain why S Koreans more fear George Jr than N Korea - being as they know what I suspect sycamore does not.

Undertoad · 12-31-2002, 05:14 PM

8 paragraphs, Syc. Spot on! Well done!

elSicomoro · 12-31-2002, 06:35 PM

*bows* Thank you UT, thank you. Hey, we should have a Cellar GTG, where all we do is watch Action News and read the Daily News. And then we will have Dubya worship...I already have a life-sized poster of him surrounded by burning candles in my living room.

Undertoad · 12-31-2002, 08:07 PM

Ohhh! he edited it so now it's 10 paragraphs. Oh well, you still claim the prize because it's the first time I read it that counts.

elSicomoro · 12-31-2002, 08:24 PM

He edited it out of spite.

Zorg · 01-01-2003, 04:23 AM

I think tw has the wrong site. If I wanted to hear unsupported, vitriolic leftist polemics I could go read Indymedia or something.

Not that I believe he's willing to listen to reason, but it should be pretty obvious with no UN inspectors or monitoring equipment in the country, a regime that has made clear in the past its willingness to violate treaty commitments in order to pursue nuclear weapons is not to be trusted with a bunch of plutonium. There's also the fact that(according to Rumsfeld, at least) that the North Korean electrical grid isn't in any shape to even bring the reactor online to produce electricity, which, given the state of the country's infrastructure, seems quite likely.

Undertoad · 01-01-2003, 09:31 AM

But the government has lied before, therefore the government is lying this time, and only I have the intelligence and presence of mind to detect this.

tw · 01-01-2003, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
But the government has lied before, therefore the government is lying this time, and only I have the intelligence and presence of mind to detect this.

Those who cannot challenge the facts instead attack the messenger. A classic propaganda move to avoid the fact that N Korea has not violated all sorts of treaty obligations. One who is informed only by an war advocate would believe a silly idea that a N Korean electric system could not absorb 5 Megawatts. 5 megawatts could easily be even in any African electric system. Undertoad has posted pictures providing that 5 megawatts is desperately needed.

Posted was a specific question. The question was asked to learn if Undertoad or sycamore understood details before they marched off in admiration of George Jr. What recent event triggered these events. Insead of attacking the messenger, provide the world with knowledge that it seeks - if you can. What event triggered these events?

Al Gore smoking · 01-01-2003, 10:48 AM

(Al Gore raises his hand high in the air to get TW's attention)

I think I know. The evil, war mongering, right wing extremist, cowboy hat wearing, Supreme court manipulating George Jr. shut off the oil to N Korea. So now they cant run their oil powered electric generators to make power.

(Al kicks back in his seat, puts his feet up on the desk in front of him, and lights a Marlboro)

Did I tell you I went to Harvard University? That was before I took the initiative to create the internet.

Undertoad · 01-01-2003, 11:16 AM

I asked my questions first.

But if you really need an answer, then sure, why not. These events were triggered by North Korea resuming its nuclear program, in violation of UN and other international treaties, most especially the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, in 1998.

01-01-2003, 10:48 AM	#44
Al Gore smoking stupid is as stupid does Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Tennessee Posts: 19	(Al Gore raises his hand high in the air to get TW's attention) I think I know. The evil, war mongering, right wing extremist, cowboy hat wearing, Supreme court manipulating George Jr. shut off the oil to N Korea. So now they cant run their oil powered electric generators to make power. (Al kicks back in his seat, puts his feet up on the desk in front of him, and lights a Marlboro) Did I tell you I went to Harvard University? That was before I took the initiative to create the internet. __________________ no controlling legal authority Last edited by Al Gore smoking; 01-01-2003 at 07:29 PM.

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12-30-2002, 10:11 PM	#32
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I see: we're into Clinton-esque "what is the meaning of the word 'belief'" semantics now. OK, let me ask a better question - The UN negotiated the cease-fire that created the demilitarized zone that the North Koreans are being accused of violating. The North Koreans are violating UN treaties and throwing out UN nuclear inspectors and disabling UN cameras. So why shouldn't the administration just let the UN address it? That is, after all, your position on Iraq... is it not?

12-30-2002, 10:29 PM	#33
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	You should receive an answer soon...it will ramble on for 8 or 9 paragraphs, and not directly answer your question at all. By the time you're finished reading the reply, you'll forget what you asked in the first place.

12-31-2002, 01:23 PM	#35
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	I know what you mean G, at least on the mediation part. But there are just times where someone that is just asking for it, like tw, comes along...and I can't resist. And don't you even think about interfering with the Chucklehead twins.

12-31-2002, 05:14 PM	#37
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	8 paragraphs, Syc. Spot on! Well done!

12-31-2002, 06:35 PM	#38
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	bows Thank you UT, thank you. Hey, we should have a Cellar GTG, where all we do is watch Action News and read the Daily News. And then we will have Dubya worship...I already have a life-sized poster of him surrounded by burning candles in my living room.

12-31-2002, 08:07 PM	#39
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Ohhh! he edited it so now it's 10 paragraphs. Oh well, you still claim the prize because it's the first time I read it that counts.

12-31-2002, 08:24 PM	#40
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	He edited it out of spite.

01-01-2003, 04:23 AM	#41
Zorg Layperson Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 13	I think tw has the wrong site. If I wanted to hear unsupported, vitriolic leftist polemics I could go read Indymedia or something. Not that I believe he's willing to listen to reason, but it should be pretty obvious with no UN inspectors or monitoring equipment in the country, a regime that has made clear in the past its willingness to violate treaty commitments in order to pursue nuclear weapons is not to be trusted with a bunch of plutonium. There's also the fact that(according to Rumsfeld, at least) that the North Korean electrical grid isn't in any shape to even bring the reactor online to produce electricity, which, given the state of the country's infrastructure, seems quite likely.

01-01-2003, 09:31 AM	#42
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	But the government has lied before, therefore the government is lying this time, and only I have the intelligence and presence of mind to detect this.

01-01-2003, 11:16 AM	#45
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I asked my questions first. But if you really need an answer, then sure, why not. These events were triggered by North Korea resuming its nuclear program, in violation of UN and other international treaties, most especially the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, in 1998.

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