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Old 06-06-2015, 04:42 PM   #46
it
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Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
I don't suggest that it should be.



Freedom of speech is about having the right to express your opinion without fear of state reprisal or judicial response. It is not the right to express yourself without any social consequence.
Social - yes.
Legal - no.

It's a key difference, our rights aren't a guarantee that everything we do within them is right, just that it isn't right to prevent us from doing it. On that level I have no problem with cat calling becoming consciously rude - maybe to be treated a few decades from now the same we do now with elders using racial slurs. But that's on a level of cultural adaptation.

Still, the general trend this is part of is... Troubling & interesting. We are culturally blocking more and more of the old natural mediums of initiation just at the time we've become remarkably good at consolidating human interaction artificially.
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Old 06-06-2015, 05:05 PM   #47
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But what about my inalienable right not to be offended?
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Old 06-07-2015, 06:58 AM   #48
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The word "inalienable" makes me think of of in-alien-able, able to be placed in an alien & the over-sexualization of both terrestrial and non terrestrial foreigners, the first I tend to be the larger portions of my life and the later I may or may not be depending on whether mommy lied to me. This offends me greatly.

Next time, TRIGGER WARNING!
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Old 06-07-2015, 08:09 AM   #49
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Oh, offence is a funny one. Everybody has their own idea of what may or may not be offensive.

At a theoretical level I'm less concerned with the content - I'm more concerned with the context and degree of imposition. At a personal level, the content matters - but again, it's not really about offence. If a bloke tells me my mouth would look a lot better round his cock (and I must say that sort of comment doesn't come my way much now I'm in my 40s ;p) my response isn't so much to be offended, as it is to be flummoxed, embarrassed, suddenly and cripplingly self-conscious and to try and exit the encounter with as much grace as possible.

The only time I feel offended, as such, is when someone has made a really horrible comment which intended to hurt and offend - like being told by a random stranger that i look like a man in a dress - or that I look like a dog.

I've been frightened and intimidated by encounters though. But again - that is all about context.

Here's two real life scenarios that show a distinct tonal difference:

1. Walking through a housing estate, past a shop and there's a group of young men larking about. They see me coming, and block my way. They're smiling and joking, but I am also half surrounded. One of them makes a lewd suggestion - another says, 'ignore him' and laughingly puts his arm around my shoulders.

I laughed along, made a comment of my own and continued on my way.

It doesn't sound like much - and they didn't say or do anything greatly offensive - but their physical domination of the pavement, and imposition of their interaction on me was intimidating.

2. Standing outside a hotel in London having a quick smoke and a young, very hip looking black guy in his 20s calls over to me if he could get a cig off me. Then asked me if I was looking for another kind of smoke. I declined as i was already sorted for that (;p) he made a very flattering comment and invited me to go back home with him to get wasted. I declined. And before he went on his way he asked if he could hug me goodbye. So we hugged.

That was a positive interaction. He was very sweet - there was a little flirting -It was an uninvited approach from a total stranger - but he wasn't imposing or intimidating. It had a social context - a conversational opening gambit, with continued interaction following social cues. If he'd have made a real pass at me or something, at that point, whilst I'd have declined, i certainly wouldn't have been offended.

The trouble with catcalling is it is without the appropriate
social context. Otherwise it wouldn't be catcalling.
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:05 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by DanaC
One of them makes a lewd suggestion - another says, 'ignore him' and laughingly puts his arm around my shoulders.
This is the thing that is so insidious. The "good guy" wanted to show that he would protect you from the lewd friend. But the way he does it is not to block or intimidate the lewd friend, but rather to use his body language to claim you as his own.

I have had so many problems in my life with so-called nice guys who in the end behaved with no less entitlement than the lewd guys, but they had convinced themselves that rather than "wanting" it, they had "earned" it. At least the lewd guys usually know they're being a jackass.
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Old 06-08-2015, 07:52 PM   #51
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These are not compliments - they are an imposition. They get shouted at women of all shapes, sizes and aesthetic types.

But hey - we should all be fucking grateful right? Because that's what all women really want - attention from men. Got it.
I was thinking about this when I read a This American Life transcript just now. Act 2 is a female-to-male transgender person, describing what it's like to suddenly go from no testosterone in your body, to a lot of it:

Quote:
Griffin: After that shot, and after an average shot, my testosterone levels go up to over 2,000 nanograms per deciliter, so that I have the testosterone of two high-testosterone men in my body at once.

Alex: You have the testosterone of two linebackers.

Griffin: Exactly. Exactly. That's a lot. That's a lot of T. And what's amazing about it is how instantaneous it is, that it happens within a few days really. The world just changes.

Alex: What were some of the changes that you didn't expect?

Griffin: The most overwhelming feeling is the incredible increase in libido and change in the way that I perceived women and the way I thought about sex. Before testosterone, I would be riding the subway, which is the traditional hotbed of lust in the city. And I would see a woman on the subway, and I would think, she's attractive. I'd like to meet her. What's that book she's reading? I could talk to her. This is what I would say.

There would be a narrative. There would be this stream of language. It would be very verbal.

After testosterone, there was no narrative. There was no language whatsoever. It was just, I would see a woman who was attractive or not attractive. She might have an attractive quality, nice ankles or something, and the rest of her would be fairly unappealing to me.

But that was enough to basically just flood my mind with aggressive, pornographic images, just one after another. It was like being in a pornographic movie house in my mind. And I couldn't turn it off. I could not turn it off. Everything I looked at, everything I touched, turned to sex.
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Old 06-08-2015, 07:53 PM   #52
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Griffin: I was an editorial assistant. And I would be standing at the Xerox machine, and this big, shuddering, warm, inanimate object would just drive me crazy. It was very erotic to me.

Alex: The Xerox machine.

Griffin: The Xerox machine. Or a car. I remember walking up Fifth Avenue one day, and this red convertible went by. It was a Mustang. And I remember just getting this jolt in my pants, this very physical, visceral, sexual reaction to seeing a red convertible.

Alex: What did you do with that? I mean, what did you think?

Griffin:Well, I felt like a monster a lot of the time. And it made me understand men. It made me understand adolescent boys a lot. Suddenly, hair is sprouting, and I'm turning into this beast. And I would really berate myself for it.

I remember walking up Fifth Avenue, there was a woman walking in front of me. And she was wearing this little skirt and this little top. And I was looking at her ass. And I kept saying to myself, don't look at it, don't look at it. And I kept looking at it.

And I walked past her. And this voice in my head kept saying, turn around to look at her breasts. Turn around, turn around, turn around. And my feminist, female background kept saying, don't you dare, you pig. Don't turn around. And I fought myself for a whole block, and then I turned around and checked her out.

And before, it was cool. When I would do a poetry reading, I would get up, and I would read these poems about women on the street. And I was a butch dyke, and that was very cutting-edge, and that was very sexy and raw. And now I'm just a jerk.
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Old 06-08-2015, 08:03 PM   #53
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[LAUGHTER]

Griffin: So I do feel like I've lost this edge, this nice, avant-garde kind of-- and I've gotten into a lot of arguments with women friends, co-workers, who did not know about my past as a female. I call myself a post-feminist. And I had a woman say, you're not a post-feminist. You're a misogynist. And I said, that's impossible. I can't be a misogynist.

And I couldn't explain to her how I had come to this point in my life. And to her, I was just a misogynist. And that's unfortunate because it's a lot more complicated than that.

Alex: I'll say. Wow. Testosterone didn't just turn you into a man. It turned you into Rush Limbaugh.

Griffin: I know. That I was not expecting. That I was not expecting.

So I had to relearn how to talk to women. And I had to learn how to rephrase things, how to hold my tongue on certain things. And I'm not very good at it. So I get in trouble.

Alex: That is so fascinating. Because as a man, I think, from the time I went through puberty, I feel like that's something that I've been learning to do in a certain way, is just figure out how to say things without getting myself in trouble.

Griffin: Right. Yeah, yeah.

Alex: I would not have thought that you would have had that problem.

Griffin: Right, because I should know better or something.
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Old 06-08-2015, 08:57 PM   #54
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That's good stuff.
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Old 06-08-2015, 09:52 PM   #55
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Real humans are so tough to nail down though. Because if I take this, and the experiences of other very frank men, at face value, I can construct the "male experience" as a certain thing, and try to work with it and learn how to interact with it. But then other men who have less testosterone naturally flowing in their system will get angry that assumptions are being made.

On the one hand, I truly believe we're all just a bag of chemicals and free will is an illusion, but on the other hand, we're each such a completely different bag of chemicals, you know?
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Old 06-09-2015, 12:56 AM   #56
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I would like to see a time where we can all just be accepted as people. Not male or female or any of the other labels in between. Recently there was a transgender child who was born a boy, but has apparently identified as a girl since he/she was old enough to think for herself. She's in year 3, so 8yrs old and recently was permitted to compete with the girls rather than the boys. Whilst ethically I think this was the right decision, it certainly leaves a lot to be asked about physical strength etc and there has been a social media uproar about it over here.

Obviously the reason for that is because, no matter how much women or feminists push to be considered equal to men in all areas, the fact of the matter is that we aren't. Just as men are not equal to women in all areas. Of course there will always be exceptions to these rules, but in general, male and female humans respond differently emotionally and physically to just about everything.

How could we ever expect to be equal?
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Old 06-09-2015, 06:34 AM   #57
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Griffin: The Xerox machine. Or a car. I remember walking up Fifth Avenue one day, and this red convertible went by. It was a Mustang. And I remember just getting this jolt in my pants, this very physical, visceral, sexual reaction to seeing a red convertible.
Is that testosterone or just... Objectophilia?
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:46 AM   #58
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Obviously the reason for that is because, no matter how much women or feminists push to be considered equal to men in all areas, the fact of the matter is that we aren't. Just as men are not equal to women in all areas. Of course there will always be exceptions to these rules, but in general, male and female humans respond differently emotionally and physically to just about everything.

How could we ever expect to be equal?
Actually the exceptions mark huge portions.

Between 00:30 and 2:14:
  • "The average woman is better [in spatial awareness] then 33% of all men"
  • "33% of men are better then the average woman [in language]"


Disclaimer: These are regarding cognitive psychology though, their might be differences in personality that aren't as easy to place on a metric.

The most obvious one is ofcourse crime statistics, followed by the wage gap analysis. Certainly there are groups that would insist that one of those is systematic oppression while the other is natural (MRA/feminism), but in all closer examinations it seems a matter of the choices people make, which can reflect that men and women do make different choices.

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I would like to see a time where we can all just be accepted as people. Not male or female or any of the other labels in between.
Doesn't the very idea of transgenderism go directly against that?

The moment you agree to the notion that someone is "truly [insert gender inside] but in the wrong body", you agree to the assumption that gender is about what you truly are and not simply your sex. In a way it contradicts with the premise of a gender neutral society.

I had a few interesting discussions about that with an MTF who was more scientific minded then ideological. There is a lot of interesting research done about gender differences that show up in FMRI's and actually correspond with the FMRI of transfolk (MTF get female indicators and FTM get male indicators)... So it might just be that the "Gender = nothing but sex" premise is simply wrong.

Maybe the closest we can come is feminism in the style of Wendy McElroy or Christina Hoff Sommers rather then traditional 3rd wave feminism: Simply a society of equal opportunities within our system & a culture empathy beyond the realms of our own gender. Maybe that's the most that can be done without causing more damage then good.
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Old 06-09-2015, 07:38 PM   #59
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Old 06-09-2015, 08:04 PM   #60
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Heheh.

Very good.
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