Chemical Dependency/Illness or weakness

[Brown Thrasher]

Active alcoholics and drug dependent people, as well those who are in a recovering mode. M.D.'s, therapist, Anyone who would like to talk about their pain or happiness beliefs, etc....... This seems to be a problem that effects almost all people in one way or another. There are some who say 1 in 10 are chemically dependent, and the families of each of these are usually highly effected. I just figured there were at least a hundred people who are members of the cellar and at least 10 of them would have some imput......
Drug dependency includung alcohol which is a psychoactive drug is a serious health issue in this country......

[wolf]

Well, yeah.

Of course it's a serious issue. There are effects of substance use that reach beyond the individual who is using. Impact is not just on family and friends, but often complete strangers. Substance use breeds crime, often violent crime. Muggings, carjackings, assaults, DUIs, all kindsa stuff.

I don't hold with the disease model of alcoholism/drug use. I see a lot of alcoholics. Identifying it as a disease over which the individual has no control makes it easier to use ... abdicating personal responsibility never helped anybody, IMNSHO.

For many years, when I had an actual desk, rather than sitting where ever there's a seat available, I had a photocopied paragraph pinned to my bulletin board. If you care to find the original to get the quote exactly right, it was from the Endnotes of Philip K. Dick's "Through a Scanner Darkly."

As best as I can remember, it goes:

Drug use is not a disease, it is a decision, not unlike the decision to step in front of a moving car. As Villein said, "Save the cash, and let the credit go," but that is a mistake, if the cash is a penny, and the credit a whole lifetime.

I see a lot of drug addicted people. I see a lot of alcoholics. Every single day. Often the same individual over and over again. I remember when I first started seeing them, and they looked kinda normal, and I see them now, totally used up.

I've seen some successes. I've seen the successes fail, and strive to succeed again, or more often, to spiral lower and lower, giving their lives to their drug of choice.

Somewhere online there are photo series of the same person over a period of months and years ... mugshots, taken by a Sheriff's Department somewhere, that illustrate the ravages of drugs over time. Sometimes over a short time (just a couple of months).

I strongly suggest searching these pictures out. They tell the story far better than the many anecdotes that I can relate.

[Brown Thrasher]

I see your point. However, what about the genetic factor. "The possibility of a genetic predisposition to developing alcohol abuse problems have been widely researched. -Cotton1979-in a review of 39 studies of families of 6251 alcoholics and 4083 nonalcoholics who had been followed over 40 years- reported that almost one third of alcoholics had at least one parent with an alcohol problem. More recently, a study of children of alcoholics by Cloniger et al(1986) reported strong evidece for the inheritance of alcoholism. They found that, for males, having one alcoholic parent increased thr rate from 11.4 percent to 29.5 percent , and having havin two alcoholic parents increased the rate to 41.2 percent." -Abnormal Psychology and modern life
Just another view. While working as a therapist, I talked to many alcoholics and addicts. I saw many die due to what I consider a disease. They discussed the craving and withdrawal symptoms they experienced. You dont see this in social drinkers/users.

[wolf]

First, as we all learned in the first month of statistics class ... correllation does not imply causality. Is it genetics, or is it learned behavior? Or is it a matter of the process of addiction itself?

Craving and physical withdrawal symptoms are not seen in social users because they don't use to the point where they've fucked up their bodies enough to require the substance. Or have they? Plenty of casual drinkers have hangovers ... it's not that far of a step to the withdrawal symptoms, shakes, seizures and DTs of the serious alcoholic deprived of his booze. Ditto for herion, for example. It doesn't take that long to develop a tolerance requiring more and more of the substance. The more you use, the harder the withdrawal. That the withdrawal symptoms are insignificant when one starts using doesn't make them any less real.

But none of that makes it a disease. It's consequences of one's choice.

[Brown Thrasher]

[quote=wolf]First, as we all learned in the first month of statistics class ... correllation does not imply causality. Is it genetics, or is it learned behavior? Or is it a matter of the process of addiction itself?

Craving and physical withdrawal symptoms are not seen in social users because they don't use to the point where they've fucked up their bodies enough to require the substance. Or have they? Plenty of casual drinkers have hangovers ... it's not that far of a step to the withdrawal symptoms, shakes, seizures and DTs of the serious alcoholic deprived of his booze. Ditto for herion, for example. It doesn't take that long to develop a tolerance requiring more and more of the substance. The more you use, the harder the withdrawal. That the withdrawal symptoms are insignificant when one starts using doesn't make them any less real.

But none of that makes it a disease. It's consequences of one's choice.[/QUOTE

I beg to disagree. First of all, I think when talking about psychoactive drugs, it does to some degree show some scientific fact of a genetic causation.
Secondly, its not so much the body as the neurotransmitters in the brain such as dopamine which are depleted when obsessively using alcohol or drugs that causes the craving and withdrawal symptoms. There is a difference between a cancer patient on morphine for six months daily running out and not being able to get any for three days due to an ice storm. However someone addicted to lets say addictive pain killers, benzodiazapines, alcohol, stimulants, etc.... During that same ice storm once the craving or withrwal becomes severe they will walk through ice five miles for a few pills or a bottle of whisky. The cancer paitent unable; would not do that if they were able. Many scientist have found genes and abnormalities of alcoholics and drug abusers in their brains with pet scans and other means. I do agree that sociological factors can definetly be a factor in addiction, but I am convinced that genetics plays a major factor. Look at someone addicted to cigarettes. If you will notice the ones able to quit and stay quit dont have some other addiction such as alcohol. There is a book dealing with alcoholism that talks about the three types of drinkers. Social drinkers(occasional hangovers), heavy drinkers may drin some everday(hangovers occasionally lays out of work after to much at the lake fishing sunday), and the the alcoholic that causes harm to himself, his close ones, and society a as a whole............
If it is a problem of ones decision making, why do so many die everday. Why are our prisons filled to their capacity. Why don't they "Just say know."

[Clodfobble]

Even if you want to claim that there is a genetic predisposition for becoming addicted stronger and faster to substances than other people, there is no evidence of a genetic predisposition to look at a substance for the first time and crave to take it. The first time is always a choice.

[Trilby]

I don't hold with the disease model of it, either. People who do drugs and drink alcoholically should be sterilized and then shot. Who do they think they are? Wasting everybody's time and patience, begging for forgiveness and, most notably, loathing themselves right into early graves and suicidal behaviors. Who needs it!

That said--HOW does one KNOW one is an alcoholic until the first drink is down the gullet? And most alcoholics don't suffer consequences right away--mostly, it's a good, positive, self-reinforcing experiment. In this day and age, in this country, it would be the minority who was not exposed to a cocktail, beer or whatever. The drugs and alcohol are GOOD until they are BAD. By that time, chemical messengers and even brain functions are warped. Addiction is understood by those who have it and will never be by those who don't. It looks like insanity from a non-addicts viewpoint. I just deleted a bunch of stuff I wrote about similar diseases. It doesn't matter. You either understand or you don't.

[Trilby]

I think Terry McGovern, daughter of Democractic Presidential Nominee and Senator George McGovern, said it best. Terry was brought into the ED of her local hospital for alcohol poisoining for the umpteenth time and an orderly asked her why she did it--kept on drinking in the face of irrefutable proof that she needed to quit to save her own life, and Terry said, "I don't know."

[Undertoad]

Alcohol use is a net positive to most people. Moderate drinkers live years longer than teetotalers. As a "social lubricant" it is unmatched, to the point where you would be hard-pressed to find a party where alcohol is not offered. Most people reading this are the result of alcohol in some way.

Drug use, including alcohol, is found in every culture. Beer and wine-making is first observed 4000 B.C. Seeking different states of mind is a deep part of human curiosity, first witnessed in children spinning themselves into a state of dizziness. Such activities are so deeply a part of childhood that they are practically ritualized. In other Cellar threads you will find people seeking these different states of mind via religious inspiration, and calling these states of mind the most important finding of their life.

I have absolutely no doubt that there is a biological basis for alcoholism. I think this should be studied and understood. I think understanding the biological basis will help those who make choices. I think calling it "disease" is a step towards acknowledging the biology of the problem but changes the nature of the debate in an unfortunate way. I think alcoholics have little choice by the time their problem is apparent and that addressing the problem through biology is probably a better and easier route.

My ex's oldest sister is a deeply troubled human being. At one point in her life, she was so alcoholic that she could not be left unsupervised for five minutes with any money or she would seek out the nearest store and get as drunk as possible. Earlier in her life she was a coke addict, including during one of her pregnancies. Her two children are also deeply fucked up, the older failing out of Penn State while leaning into schizophrenia, the younger a complete and total slut banging guys in their 30s when she was 16.

Her condition is so continuous through her life, so deep running thorugh several rehabs, that it's hard to imagine her ever redeeming herself in any way. At age 46 she has lost almost all her teeth due to drinking, looks terrible and will probably die in 5-10 years without having produced anything useful whatsoever.

It's really hard to imagine that she doesn't have some underlying biological problem. I know for certain that I will never be like her, and I don't think it's just a matter of a bad choice.

All that said, I would like to have helped her if I could have. And all the people with her condition.

[Brown Thrasher]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Even if you want to claim that there is a genetic predisposition for becoming addicted stronger and faster to substances than other people, there is no evidence of a genetic predisposition to look at a substance for the first time and crave to take it. The first time is always a choice.

I did not say there was a "genetic predisiposition to look at a aubstance for the first time and crave to take it" I stated that there is a predisposition to addiciton to alcohol from children who had one or both parents who were alcoholic. I think i also backed this up with refrences. There are a great deal of Adult children of alcoholics who never take a drink because of what they have experienced because of their parents abuse. You will find a lot of these people at Al-Anon meetings trying to understand why they have the feelings they have. My point being, that they have many of the same personality traits of their parent/parents. On the other hand, there are children that grow up trying another psychoactive drug instead of alcohol because they hate alcohol. However they usually become addicted to whatever drug they like the best when used obsessively. I'm not saying every person that has a parent who is or was addicted will become an alcoholic/addict. Thats a question science is looking very carefully at. Why can their be four siblings in a family of an alcoholic and only two of them become addicted to some form of addictive substance. On second thought, even those that do not become addicted still have a great deal of difficulty dealing with lifes issues. There addiction or obsession if you like may be shown through work, gambling, eating, etc........... and then there are some who appear for some reason to be fairly normal people.... there are alot of questions concerning addiction. I agree,if your a child of an alcoholic, and you never take a psychoactive chemical ,how could you become addicted. However, it's been often said, that when someone predisisposed to addiction takes that first drink or drug the terrible cycle begins.

[zippyt]

I don't know if this is what you were talking about Wolf , but you can defanently see her decline ,
let it load and watch her down fall , SAD

[xoxoxoBruce]

I guess caffeine doesn't count.

[Trilby]

I don't suppose that is meant to illustrate the importance of a good hairstylist...poor girl. She looks as if someone, a looooong time ago, cared for her. Does anyone really think this girl wanted this for herself???? In the first few mugshots she looks as though this were a 'lark'--isn't she having FUN?! You can see the pics where the disease (for those of you who think it is one) takes complete hold of her. I've seen similar pics of schizophrenics--in one they are obviously healthy, and in the other you can SEE what schizophrenia--despite any blood test, MRI or other "diagnostic" test might or might not indicate--has done to them.

Wolf, you can't believe that you know more than the AMA. How can you not see this desperation?????? You!

There is no definitive test for schizophrenia. The fact of the disease is proof enough. THERE IS NO TEST FOR MOST PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDERS! Why do we demand addicts prove more than schizo's or bipolars???? If you ask me, bipolars and BPD wreck as much, if not more, havoc.

[Trilby]

[quote=Brown Thrasher]. There are some who say 1 in 10 are chemically dependent, /QUOTE]

Dude--It's one in FOUR.

[Brown Thrasher]

Originally Posted by Brianna

I don't suppose that is meant to illustrate the importance of a good hairstylist...poor girl. She looks as if someone, a looooong time ago, cared for her. Does anyone really think this girl wanted this for herself???? In the first few mugshots she looks as though this were a 'lark'--isn't she having FUN?! You can see the pics where the disease (for those of you who think it is one) takes complete hold of her. I've seen similar pics of schizophrenics--in one they are obviously healthy, and in the other you can SEE what schizophrenia--despite any blood test, MRI or other "diagnostic" test might or might not indicate--has done to them.

Wolf, you can't believe that you know more than the AMA. How can you not see this desperation?????? You!

There is no definitive test for schizophrenia. The fact of the disease is proof enough. THERE IS NO TEST FOR MOST PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDERS! Why do we demand addicts prove more than schizo's or bipolars???? If you ask me, bipolars and BPD wreck as much, if not more, havoc.

Sorry, but I don't see the humor. However, there are test for psychological disorsers. Take for example, the MMPI, the ASI for Addictive disorders etc....
We don't laugh at people who have biological diseases such as cancer. However, when someone who is either not an alcoholic or addictthey do not have much empathy for them. Alcoholism and drug addiction is reconized by the AMA as a biological as well as Psychological illness. You know most addicted people didn't ask to become sick. they just took that first drink or drug and off to the races they went. Also schizophrenia and bi-polar disease are very sad. You combine one of these illnesses with addiction and the hope for recovery is much more limited than your garden variety alcoholic/ addict. I will tell you a story about this young beauty queen she had been diagnosed with bi-polar during her teenage years. Well one night while out having a drink with her friends, someone encouraged her to try crack. T o make a long story short at the age of 25 after 21 treatments for her illnesses she was found in a dumster in Miami. She had left treatment overdosed and the people just through her in a dumpster. I will never forget that funeral. I don't think I have ever seen so much despair from so many people.