Impeding changes to our Health Care system

[lookout123]

like my friend's daughter who is diabetic. That government-run health insurance program has been quite literally a lifesaver for her.

ABSOLUTELY! I whole heartedly support safety net programs like this. My concern is where we draw the lines for the programs to prevent corporations from dropping benefits and pushing more people to the government sponsored plans simply for the sake of ease and profit.

[classicman]

I think the debate is more how to fix what is perceived to be broken, if possible. Can we spend less money and insure an additional 15-25 million people?
Can we provide care to everyone without expanding facilities and caregivers?
I still have not heard one valid argument that answers those questions with a yes.
Therefore, I come back to... How are we going to do this?

[glatt]

Originally Posted by classicman

Where is the waste - specifically?

This was addressed by a very good study by a nonpartisan group that Undertoad mentioned in post 152 of this thread and that I linked to directly again about a month ago. It really is worth visiting and spending a lot of time digesting. There is a tremendous amount of information there.

There is an interactive graphic overview here. And the front page that takes you to the detailed study is here.

It shows that by far the greatest rates of waste in the US health care system are in insurance and administration of health care. But we over pay in virtually every other area of health care. The only place where we are cheaper than other countries is in home care and long term care. The report suggests that is because the nurses who do that work are underpaid compared to other countries. The doctors (mainly the specialists, not the general practitioners and OB/GYNs) are payed more than in the other developed counties.

To read the chart, the light blue area is what the average costs are in other developed counties. The dark blue areas are how much more we pay for those areas of health care. The orange is where we pay less. And then at the far left is all of the bar graphs added up into the total.

As of 2003, we pay $477 billion a year more than we should, compared to other developed countries, which works out to around $1,500 per person per year. Makes the cost of reform pale in comparison, assuming we can eliminate the waste.

[classicman]

Which of those countries is comparable to the United States in size, population....?
Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Mexico, Netherlands, Norway, Spain, or Switzerland.

Are any of them? They are referred to as "Peer Countries." I never thought of the US as peers to many of them - no offense intended.

Does that matter? This is the problem that I'm having with all the BS which is out there - The fact get lost in all the noise. Also this study used data which is 6 years old. Are things better or worse now?

[glatt]

Originally Posted by classicman

Which of those countries is comparable to the United States in size, population....?

They are all comparable. The costs are normalized to take into account the different economies of each country.

I can't copy and paste text from the PDF of the full report, and am too lazy to retype it, but they said in the report that they adjust for the differences in the economies of each country.

[classicman]

Can you really do that? I've been reading it and it seemed like once you accept that , its pretty straight-forward.

[Radar]

Excellent speech by President Obama tonight. I especially like the part where he said he will not back down from having a public option and that there WILL be health care reform and he will not allow us to go on with the status quo.

It was also very moving when he talked about Ted Kennedy.

I was disgusted by the scumbag who shouted "liar!" when President Obama told the truth about the proposed health care reform not covering undocumented immigrants. I was also disgusted at the lack of respect and poor behavior on the part of Republicans.

In each and every single presidential speech in front of a joint session of congress I've ever seen during my lifetime, when the president speaks, every member from both parties would applaud and stand up. Even during the stain on American history known as the Bush administration, Democrats had enough respect for the office of the Presidency that they applauded and stood up.

Not tonight though. The Republicans have changed all that with their divisive, disrespectful, and disgusting behavior.

[TheMercenary]

Illegal aliens should not be paid for by public funds. Period. Legal aliens who follow the process and do the right thing are welcome. All others are scumbag law breakers and should be kicked out on their ass.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Illegal aliens should not be paid for by public funds. Period.

Right, and they won't be. No one has said that they should be. No one has proposed that they will be. That they might be is a lie. Period.

[TheMercenary]

Operative word, "might"...

[Clodfobble]

It's not an operative word if it's a lie. The whole point is there is no might, illegal aliens will not be covered by this plan. End of story.

[dar512]

In general, I liked what I heard from B. I want to look a little closer at the details, but it sounded good on the surface.

I was mostly underwhelmed by the Republican response. Most of it was not solid points but hand-waving. The only thing I did like was the initiative to allow businesses to get insurance across state lines. I think that ought to be put in.

[dar512]

"There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false – the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."

That seems clearly stated to me. Not a lot of wiggle room there.

[jinx]

What will happen then, when an uninsured illegal immigrant shows up in the ER, under any proposed plan?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by dar512

" the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally."

Correct. The part they did not admit or tell you about is that they already get care. We care for them everyday. EveryfriggingDay! So don't try to tell me they do not get covered. We are ALREADY Paying for these illegal aliens. You pay for them through higher insurance premiums. Get a grip people.