What do u wonder about CHINA ? - Page 4

xoxoxoBruce · 05-14-2003, 07:00 AM

That's very interesting ,Billy. It would appear the 8 parties function the same way large labor unions and lobbying groups work here.
The 8 try to influence the CCP, but they really have no power because they don't have a voting block.
All power is controlled by the CCP and flows down from the top.
The 8 are like children that are allowed play in the yard, but the parent dictates the yard and what games are allowed.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-14-2003, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Shall we go on at "Socialism Vs Capitalism" ?

Sure, Al.
Very complex question but basically two forms of government that differ in there basic theory.
Capitalism gives the individual responsibility for themselves.
Socialism gives the government responsibility for everyone.
You have neither.

ScottSolomon · 05-14-2003, 03:34 PM

I think you are falling into the trap of seeing capitalism and communism in black and white terms. Many nations have socialist and capitalist aspects - like Japan and Sweden. They are not like oil and water. For instance, America is not even a pure capitalist economy. Most economists agree that pure capitalism is as unmanagable as is pure communism.

China has been making a great deal of progress. I would love to see the establishment of a set bill of rights similar to the U.S. constitution's bill of rights. That would not necessarily mean that the communist party had to suppress speech or tolerate dissent, they can simply adopt the American style of public coercion.

I think that China is part of the reason for our current war on terrorism. I am quite sure that the land grab in Iraq was an effort to seize control of the levers of oil power before China became a challenging force. China will need a massive amount of oil if it is to grow into the industrial powerhouse that it can be. I think that we will be controlling that oil to a large extent and that we will be at odds with them in a few years - if the neocons stay in power. I think that China will be the leader internationally in biotech and cloning in a few years if we keep the same ideologues in office.

But anyway - what were we talking about?

Oh yeah - i wonder how the Chinese people feel about government censorship of the news and the net. Is there even an awareness about this among the population?

Happy Monkey · 05-14-2003, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
You have neither.

To be pedantic, nobody has either.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-14-2003, 06:22 PM

Quote:

nobody has either.

Shhhh, we haven't got to that yet. Continue spanking.

Billy · 05-14-2003, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ScottSolomon
I wonder how the Chinese people feel about government censorship of the news and the net. Is there even an awareness about this among the population?

We can not say what capitalism and socialism is ok. They all have their advantages. The system is good if it can give people freedom and happy life. It is difficult to say what is ok.

Now the people,especial people come from the west, stive for the press freedom.I don't know why the government want to censor the press. But it is ok now. In China the freedom is a history problem. We need resolve it in progress.We don't hope that the west overthrow the society system by the press ideology. The people have their right to select system. We select the socialism because only the socialism can liberate the old China.

juju · 05-14-2003, 09:36 PM

You don't know why the government wants to censor the press? Isn't it obvious?

Billy · 05-14-2003, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
All power is controlled by the CCP and flows down from the top.
The 8 are like children that are allowed play in the yard, but the parent dictates the yard and what games are allowed.

What you say is right. The 8 parties have not so power to control the government. Only one CPC manage the national affair in China. But the 8 parties have the power in consensus

ScottSolomon · 05-15-2003, 01:11 AM

No one is arguing that revolution would be a good idea. I don;t necessarily think that communism is bad. China is not a Marxist communist society anyway - Mao chose his own brand of socialism.

The government needs to control the media and the press because it makes shaping history to one's advantage easy. It allows government to mold the public's opinion and it contributes to broad initiatives led by a tiny faction of insiders. Every government does this to some degree. China, and the Soviet Union/Eastern Bloc countries went over the top with their desires to censor dissent and manipulate the public. The U.S. took a more subtle approach- relying on advertising techniques and public fear in order to create the desired political atmosphere.

The U.S. tolerates fringe movements, but since they are weakly funded they can be relegated to the margins by the mass media. Most people know a nice fiction about AMerican history that was taught in high school - but few actually learn the real history of the U.S.. Our news media is partially responsible for this. We have a media system that ceaselessly bombards viewers with junk news filler in order to maintain a steady rate of fear among the credulous. This did not start out as a methood of public manipulation, this system naturally arose through the growth of corporate media and their desire to curry favor with the people in power.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-15-2003, 08:05 PM

I agree that it wasn't marxist communism but I do think it was Mao's communism. After Mao, China moved toward its own version of socialism. As Happy Monkey pointed out, nobody has true socialism (or capitalism) but I think China is still closer to communism. This is probably due to the desire of the government AND the people to avoid the upheavals of the past. If the people see more freedoms and more wealth. I doubt if they will care whether they can participate in the government or not.
Care to comment, Al ?

alamuhan · 05-15-2003, 08:19 PM

China's entering the morden world should be defined at 1978 -- though we "liberated" in 1949-- so we just started. We have spend a long time in arguing "Socialism Vs Capitalism", but we get nothing . Now we don't think that's the most important problem anymore (for most people ), instead ,we concern about wealth and prosperity. We young generation care more about how to find our value and then we hope OUR COUNTRY become more and more powerful.

Ideology do take a part but not the biggest one . At the end of 19th century we declined and want way re-prosperity , we tried to go capitalism way but failed. If u know the history about China in Ming and Qing Empire , u will agree it's inevitable that we choose Socialism.

Russell said that , multiformity makes the world wonderful !

xoxoxoBruce · 05-15-2003, 08:52 PM

Thanks for the input. I think socialism is a natural choice for China. Actually most of the countries are moving that way in one form or another. As I tried to state in my last post, I think the people are more concerned with a better standard of living first.
China is already one of the most powerful nations. Do you mean powerful or influential?

Undertoad · 05-15-2003, 09:28 PM

If capitalism was a failure compared to China's 20th century, it's hard to imagine. Look at this graphic:

http://cellar.org/showthread.php?threadid=189

How many people killed by Chinese Communism?

Billy · 05-16-2003, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
How many people killed by Chinese Communism?

Like in the Iraq War many people were killed by the US. In time peace time the US still kill other countri's people by "giving them freedom". The Culture R is past. We all think it is wrong. In recent time there are few people killed by Chinese Communism. I don't wkno where you get the data.

alamuhan · 05-16-2003, 07:20 AM

that's what i want say, Billy .

05-14-2003, 07:00 AM	#46
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	That's very interesting ,Billy. It would appear the 8 parties function the same way large labor unions and lobbying groups work here. The 8 try to influence the CCP, but they really have no power because they don't have a voting block. All power is controlled by the CCP and flows down from the top. The 8 are like children that are allowed play in the yard, but the parent dictates the yard and what games are allowed. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

05-14-2003, 03:34 PM	#48
ScottSolomon Coronation Incarnate Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: On the skin of a tiny planet in an obscure galaxy in a lackluster corner of the universe. Posts: 94	I think you are falling into the trap of seeing capitalism and communism in black and white terms. Many nations have socialist and capitalist aspects - like Japan and Sweden. They are not like oil and water. For instance, America is not even a pure capitalist economy. Most economists agree that pure capitalism is as unmanagable as is pure communism. China has been making a great deal of progress. I would love to see the establishment of a set bill of rights similar to the U.S. constitution's bill of rights. That would not necessarily mean that the communist party had to suppress speech or tolerate dissent, they can simply adopt the American style of public coercion. I think that China is part of the reason for our current war on terrorism. I am quite sure that the land grab in Iraq was an effort to seize control of the levers of oil power before China became a challenging force. China will need a massive amount of oil if it is to grow into the industrial powerhouse that it can be. I think that we will be controlling that oil to a large extent and that we will be at odds with them in a few years - if the neocons stay in power. I think that China will be the leader internationally in biotech and cloning in a few years if we keep the same ideologues in office. But anyway - what were we talking about? Oh yeah - i wonder how the Chinese people feel about government censorship of the news and the net. Is there even an awareness about this among the population? __________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. George Orwell

05-15-2003, 01:11 AM	#54
ScottSolomon Coronation Incarnate Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: On the skin of a tiny planet in an obscure galaxy in a lackluster corner of the universe. Posts: 94	No one is arguing that revolution would be a good idea. I don;t necessarily think that communism is bad. China is not a Marxist communist society anyway - Mao chose his own brand of socialism. The government needs to control the media and the press because it makes shaping history to one's advantage easy. It allows government to mold the public's opinion and it contributes to broad initiatives led by a tiny faction of insiders. Every government does this to some degree. China, and the Soviet Union/Eastern Bloc countries went over the top with their desires to censor dissent and manipulate the public. The U.S. took a more subtle approach- relying on advertising techniques and public fear in order to create the desired political atmosphere. The U.S. tolerates fringe movements, but since they are weakly funded they can be relegated to the margins by the mass media. Most people know a nice fiction about AMerican history that was taught in high school - but few actually learn the real history of the U.S.. Our news media is partially responsible for this. We have a media system that ceaselessly bombards viewers with junk news filler in order to maintain a steady rate of fear among the credulous. This did not start out as a methood of public manipulation, this system naturally arose through the growth of corporate media and their desire to curry favor with the people in power. __________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. George Orwell

05-15-2003, 08:05 PM	#55
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I agree that it wasn't marxist communism but I do think it was Mao's communism. After Mao, China moved toward its own version of socialism. As Happy Monkey pointed out, nobody has true socialism (or capitalism) but I think China is still closer to communism. This is probably due to the desire of the government AND the people to avoid the upheavals of the past. If the people see more freedoms and more wealth. I doubt if they will care whether they can participate in the government or not. Care to comment, Al ? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

05-15-2003, 08:52 PM	#57
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Thanks for the input. I think socialism is a natural choice for China. Actually most of the countries are moving that way in one form or another. As I tried to state in my last post, I think the people are more concerned with a better standard of living first. China is already one of the most powerful nations. Do you mean powerful or influential? __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

05-14-2003, 09:36 PM	#52
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	You don't know why the government wants to censor the press? Isn't it obvious?

05-15-2003, 08:19 PM	#56
alamuhan Romantic Necromancer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: CN Posts: 29	China's entering the morden world should be defined at 1978 -- though we "liberated" in 1949-- so we just started. We have spend a long time in arguing "Socialism Vs Capitalism", but we get nothing . Now we don't think that's the most important problem anymore (for most people ), instead ,we concern about wealth and prosperity. We young generation care more about how to find our value and then we hope OUR COUNTRY become more and more powerful. Ideology do take a part but not the biggest one . At the end of 19th century we declined and want way re-prosperity , we tried to go capitalism way but failed. If u know the history about China in Ming and Qing Empire , u will agree it's inevitable that we choose Socialism. Russell said that , multiformity makes the world wonderful !

05-15-2003, 09:28 PM	#58
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	If capitalism was a failure compared to China's 20th century, it's hard to imagine. Look at this graphic: http://cellar.org/showthread.php?threadid=189 How many people killed by Chinese Communism?

05-16-2003, 07:20 AM	#60
alamuhan Romantic Necromancer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: CN Posts: 29	that's what i want say, Billy .

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