The Grapes Must Suffer.

Flint · 08-07-2010, 02:42 PM

I don't know if this was known by the contemporaries of Jesus or Buddha, or the men who amassed the writing attributed to these figures, but I think it would have been quite an apt parable for their teachings that the grapes on the vine must suffer (in poor soil) in order to produce complex flavors.

As I thought of this, I thought of those whose great suffering produces great products of beauty. Here is a video of a man who slowly killed himself, with drugs. Along the way, he was able to do things such as this performance. This vocal performance gives me chills every time I listen to it. It may not be your cup of tea, but I believe that this is real emotion. He makes me feel it. To me, that qualifies this as artistic achievement on a high level.

The following may not be the kind of lesson we would be comfortable teaching our children, but I propose that those who have plumbed the depths of suffering are able to communicate a deep level of human feeling that even those among us who may only be (currently) experiencing minor emotional discomfort are able to identify with. I believe that some artists of American "Blues" music found this to be a necessary condition. It strikes me that Jesus and Buddha may have agreed with them, and this is an attractive idea to me.

Maybe I've suffered too much in my life, and developoed some strange coping mechanisms. Must the grapes on the vine suffer, in order to produce complex flavors? Is this the opposite of sour grapes, i.e. since you expect the grapes to be sour, you tell yourself you like them that way? Or, is this what the great teachers were talking about?

lumberjim · 08-07-2010, 03:29 PM

additionally, grapes is a euphemism for the male gonads. I don't want mine to suffer any more than is absolutely necessary. But I agree, Flint.. Big Pain forces you to shut down and release your identification with your thinking mind. This makes way for true creativity to come to the front.

I heard Adam from Counting Crows say he can only write good music when he is depressed or heartbroken in his interview w/ Howard Stern.

Cicero · 08-07-2010, 05:51 PM

That's exactly who I just thought of (Counting Crowes)! I heard a song by them last night and was quickly reminded of how soulful and fantastic they are.

richlevy · 08-07-2010, 10:20 PM

It's not just music. One of my favorite comedians was Richard Jeni who committed suicide a few years back.

Go down a list of funny men and women and you will find suicide, overdose, and various addictions.

Is comedic talent a well developed coping mechanism for depressed individuals that eventually breaks down? Are celebrity comedians only as screwed up as other celebrities?

Flint · 08-07-2010, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richlevy

It's not just music.

I'm reading Confederacy of Dunces. The author killed himself. He was posthumously awarded the Pulitzer Prize

Gravdigr · 08-08-2010, 06:00 AM

Apparently, at some point, I'm going to be an amazingly successful artist.

glatt · 08-08-2010, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richlevy

It's not just music.

Hemingway blew his brains out. Van Gogh cut off his ear. Hasselhof ate that burger.

Trilby · 08-08-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravdigr

Apparently, at some point, I'm going to be an amazingly successful artist.

What do you do if you suffer and you're a shitty artist? Or it's all for naught? Or what?

What if you really fookin' suffer and you end up being the Diet Coke of art?

not everyone is Poe or Plath or Woolf.

xoxoxoBruce · 08-08-2010, 06:33 PM

But too many believe they are not, only because they've not suffered enough. They believe when they've suffered enough they'll have an epiphany, suddenly the path to success and recognition will be clear.

Better than admitting they have no talent, I guess.

Trilby · 08-08-2010, 09:01 PM

Andy Warhol comes to mind.

classicman · 08-08-2010, 09:04 PM

Woody Allen for me. I never liked nor got his "humor"

Gravdigr · 08-09-2010, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brianna

What if you really fookin' suffer and you end up being the Diet Coke of art?

Or worse yet, the New Coke of art.

Urbane Guerrilla · 08-09-2010, 10:44 PM

I can remember when Woody Allen was funny.
-------------
Mile-to-school-through-the-snow-barefoot UG

classicman · 08-09-2010, 10:49 PM

That time never existed

ZenGum · 08-10-2010, 02:04 AM

I doubt that Buddha would have agreed. His thinking was more that suffering, although a normal part of human life, can be avoided by letting go of attachments.

Likewise, I think Jesus would have said that great human attributes are produced by righteousness and universal love, not some kind of suffering.

However, there are many cases that seem to illustrate your point. IMHO, great art is something that causes an emotional reaction in the viewer - more, that it causes the viewer to empathise with the artist. If the artist isn't feeling something and expressing it as the create, there is nothing to empathise with, and all they're doing is graphic design.
However, the emotion doesn't have to be pain or misery. Joy, love, hope etc will do, as well as fear, despair, sadness. Try playing Beethoven's 9th (Ode to Joy) at top volume on your stereo and tell me that isn't great.

UG, one more comment like that and you're going in a home.

08-07-2010, 02:42 PM	#1
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	The Grapes Must Suffer. I don't know if this was known by the contemporaries of Jesus or Buddha, or the men who amassed the writing attributed to these figures, but I think it would have been quite an apt parable for their teachings that the grapes on the vine must suffer (in poor soil) in order to produce complex flavors. As I thought of this, I thought of those whose great suffering produces great products of beauty. Here is a video of a man who slowly killed himself, with drugs. Along the way, he was able to do things such as this performance. This vocal performance gives me chills every time I listen to it. It may not be your cup of tea, but I believe that this is real emotion. He makes me feel it. To me, that qualifies this as artistic achievement on a high level. The following may not be the kind of lesson we would be comfortable teaching our children, but I propose that those who have plumbed the depths of suffering are able to communicate a deep level of human feeling that even those among us who may only be (currently) experiencing minor emotional discomfort are able to identify with. I believe that some artists of American "Blues" music found this to be a necessary condition. It strikes me that Jesus and Buddha may have agreed with them, and this is an attractive idea to me. Maybe I've suffered too much in my life, and developoed some strange coping mechanisms. Must the grapes on the vine suffer, in order to produce complex flavors? Is this the opposite of sour grapes, i.e. since you expect the grapes to be sour, you tell yourself you like them that way? Or, is this what the great teachers were talking about? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

08-07-2010, 03:29 PM	#2
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	additionally, grapes is a euphemism for the male gonads. I don't want mine to suffer any more than is absolutely necessary. But I agree, Flint.. Big Pain forces you to shut down and release your identification with your thinking mind. This makes way for true creativity to come to the front. I heard Adam from Counting Crows say he can only write good music when he is depressed or heartbroken in his interview w/ Howard Stern. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

08-07-2010, 05:51 PM	#3
Cicero Looking forward to open mic night. Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: New Mexico Posts: 5,148	That's exactly who I just thought of (Counting Crowes)! I heard a song by them last night and was quickly reminded of how soulful and fantastic they are. __________________ Show me a sane man, and I will cure him for you.- Carl Jung

08-07-2010, 10:20 PM	#4
richlevy King Of Wishful Thinking Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Philadelphia Suburbs Posts: 6,669	It's not just music. One of my favorite comedians was Richard Jeni who committed suicide a few years back. Go down a list of funny men and women and you will find suicide, overdose, and various addictions. Is comedic talent a well developed coping mechanism for depressed individuals that eventually breaks down? Are celebrity comedians only as screwed up as other celebrities? __________________ Exercise your rights and remember your obligations - VOTE! I have always believed that hope is that stubborn thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us so long as we have the courage to keep reaching, to keep working, to keep fighting. -- Barack Hussein Obama

08-08-2010, 06:00 AM	#6
Gravdigr The Un-Tuckian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: South Central...KY that is Posts: 39,517	Apparently, at some point, I'm going to be an amazingly successful artist. __________________ These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, EPA, FBI, DEA, CDC, or FDIC. These statements are not intended to diagnose, cause, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. If you feel you have been harmed/offended by, or, disagree with any of the above statements or images, please feel free to fuck right off.

08-08-2010, 06:33 PM	#9
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	But too many believe they are not, only because they've not suffered enough. They believe when they've suffered enough they'll have an epiphany, suddenly the path to success and recognition will be clear. Better than admitting they have no talent, I guess. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

08-08-2010, 09:01 PM	#10
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	Andy Warhol comes to mind. __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

08-08-2010, 09:04 PM	#11
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Woody Allen for me. I never liked nor got his "humor" __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

08-09-2010, 10:44 PM	#13
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	I can remember when Woody Allen was funny. ------------- Mile-to-school-through-the-snow-barefoot UG

08-09-2010, 10:49 PM	#14
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	That time never existed __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

08-10-2010, 02:04 AM	#15
ZenGum Doctor Wtf Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Badelaide, Baustralia Posts: 12,861	I doubt that Buddha would have agreed. His thinking was more that suffering, although a normal part of human life, can be avoided by letting go of attachments. Likewise, I think Jesus would have said that great human attributes are produced by righteousness and universal love, not some kind of suffering. However, there are many cases that seem to illustrate your point. IMHO, great art is something that causes an emotional reaction in the viewer - more, that it causes the viewer to empathise with the artist. If the artist isn't feeling something and expressing it as the create, there is nothing to empathise with, and all they're doing is graphic design. However, the emotion doesn't have to be pain or misery. Joy, love, hope etc will do, as well as fear, despair, sadness. Try playing Beethoven's 9th (Ode to Joy) at top volume on your stereo and tell me that isn't great. UG, one more comment like that and you're going in a home. __________________ Shut up and hug. MoreThanPretty, Nov 5, 2008. Just because I'm nominally polite, does not make me a pussy. Sundae Girl.

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