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Old 09-07-2009, 12:19 PM   #691
Redux
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Originally Posted by TheMercenary View Post
No, ignore the lies of the Left and the Right and pick apart the Bill the Dems have tried to rush through Congress.
Thank you for agreeing with me that we all should ignore most of the partisan false and misleading editorials from the Right (Betsy Mccaughey et al) that you flooded the discussion with for 40some pages.
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Old 09-07-2009, 12:25 PM   #692
TheMercenary
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Originally Posted by Redux View Post
Thank you for agreeing with me that we all should ignore most of the partisan false and misleading editorials from the Right (Betsy Mccaughey et al) that you flooded the discussion with for 40some pages.
Not what I said.

A random sample of my posts from 3 pages:

Politifact.com
MILT FREUDENHEIM from the NYT
Amanda Carpenter from the Washington Times
DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK from the NYT
Caroline Baum from Bloomberg
GENERAL EDITORIAL FROM NYT
A BUNCH OF STUFF FROM THE WSJ
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Old 09-07-2009, 04:18 PM   #693
Radar
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I'm as libertarian as anyone can get, but I still believe that there are some things that should not have a profit motive attached to them, and health care is one of them.

For those who are stupid enough to suggest the impending health care reform is even remotely socialist, you are insane.

Nobody is discussing a total government takeover of health care, though nations that have done it like the UK pay 1/3 of what Americans pay and they cover everyone including visitors to their country while giving superior health care than what is available in America even with great health insurance.

The Obama administration is merely trying to level the playing field a bit and enforce a few changes so people aren't screwed over by insurance companies. These will not drive up the cost of health care, but may eat into the profits of insurance companies.



Here are 8 FACTS about the upcoming health care reform.


8 WAYS HEALTH INSURANCE REFORM PROVIDES SECURITY AND STABILITY TO ALL AMERICANS

1. Ends Discrimination for Pre-Existing Conditions: Insurance companies will be prohibited from refusing you coverage because of your medical history.

2. Ends Exorbitant Out-of-Pocket Expenses, Deductibles or Co-Pays: Insurance companies will have to abide by yearly caps on how much they can charge for out-of-pocket expenses.

3. Ends Cost-Sharing for Preventive Care: Insurance companies must fully cover, without charge, regular checkups and tests that help you prevent illness, such as mammograms or eye and foot exams for diabetics.

4. Ends Dropping of Coverage for Seriously Ill: Insurance companies will be prohibited from dropping or watering down insurance coverage for those who become seriously ill.

5. Ends Gender Discrimination: Insurance companies will be prohibited from charging you more because of your gender.

6. Ends Annual or Lifetime Caps on Coverage: Insurance companies will be prevented from placing annual or lifetime caps on the coverage you receive.

7. Extends Coverage for Young Adults: Children would continue to be eligible for family coverage through the age of 26.

8. Guarantees Insurance Renewal: Insurance companies will be required to renew any policy as long as the policyholder pays their premium in full. Insurance companies won't be allowed to refuse renewal because someone became sick.



Here are 8 of the top MYTHS (aka lies) about the health insurance reform being proposed by the Obama administration.

COMMON MYTHS ABOUT HEALTH INSURANCE REFORM

1. It's a myth that reform will mean a "government takeover" of health care or lead to "rationing." To the contrary, reform will forbid many forms of rationing that are currently being used by insurance companies.

2. It's a myth that reform will bust the budget. To the contrary, the President has identified ways to pay for the vast majority of the up-front costs by cutting waste, fraud, and abuse within existing government health programs; ending big subsidies to insurance companies; and increasing efficiency with such steps as coordinating care and streamlining paperwork. In the long term, reform can help bring down costs that will otherwise lead to a fiscal crisis.

3. It's a malicious myth that reform would encourage or even require euthanasia for seniors. For seniors who want to consult with their family and physicians about end-of life decisions, reform will help to cover these voluntary, private consultations for those who want help with these personal and difficult family decisions.

4. It's a myth that health insurance reform will affect veterans' access to the care they get now. To the contrary, the President's budget significantly expands coverage under the VA, extending care to 500,000 more veterans who were previously excluded. The VA Healthcare system will continue to be available for all eligible veterans.

5. It's a myth that health insurance reform will hurt small businesses. To the contrary, reform will ease the burdens on small businesses, provide tax credits to help them pay for employee coverage and help level the playing field with big firms who pay much less to cover their employees on average.

6. It's myth that Health Insurance Reform would be financed by cutting Medicare benefits. To the contrary, reform will improve the long-term financial health of Medicare, ensure better coordination, eliminate waste and unnecessary subsidies to insurance companies, and help to close the Medicare "doughnut" hole to make prescription drugs more affordable for seniors.

7. It's myth that reform will force you out of your current insurance plan or force you to change doctors. To the contrary, reform will expand your choices, not eliminate them.

8. It is an absurd myth that government will be in charge of your bank accounts. Health insurance reform will simplify administration, making it easier and more convenient for you to pay bills in a method that you choose. Just like paying a phone bill or a utility bill, you can pay by traditional check, or by a direct electronic payment. And forms will be standardized so they will be easier to understand. The choice is up to you - and the same rules of privacy will apply as they do for all other electronic payments that people make.
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Old 09-07-2009, 06:39 PM   #694
TheMercenary
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WOW Radar, I thought you would be a little more original than become a mouth piece for David Axlerod. At least you could have referenced it as not being your own.

That is straight from the mouth of the White House.

http://www.democraticunderground.com...ss=389x6296060
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Old 09-07-2009, 06:43 PM   #695
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As opposed to straight from your arse?
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If I had a pound for every time Torys have said they are going to sort out the country's problems then I'd be rich enough to live under one of their governments.
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Old 09-07-2009, 06:46 PM   #696
TheMercenary
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Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
As opposed to straight from your arse?
I reference what I post. If I have not please show me where and I will correct it. I certainly have not posted something that someone else wrote as propaganda and said it was my own. I think that is dishonest.
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Old 09-07-2009, 06:46 PM   #697
TheMercenary
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FTR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar View Post
I'm as libertarian as anyone can get, but I still believe that there are some things that should not have a profit motive attached to them, and health care is one of them.

For those who are stupid enough to suggest the impending health care reform is even remotely socialist, you are insane.

Nobody is discussing a total government takeover of health care, though nations that have done it like the UK pay 1/3 of what Americans pay and they cover everyone including visitors to their country while giving superior health care than what is available in America even with great health insurance.

The Obama administration is merely trying to level the playing field a bit and enforce a few changes so people aren't screwed over by insurance companies. These will not drive up the cost of health care, but may eat into the profits of insurance companies.



Here are 8 FACTS about the upcoming health care reform.


8 WAYS HEALTH INSURANCE REFORM PROVIDES SECURITY AND STABILITY TO ALL AMERICANS

1. Ends Discrimination for Pre-Existing Conditions: Insurance companies will be prohibited from refusing you coverage because of your medical history.

2. Ends Exorbitant Out-of-Pocket Expenses, Deductibles or Co-Pays: Insurance companies will have to abide by yearly caps on how much they can charge for out-of-pocket expenses.

3. Ends Cost-Sharing for Preventive Care: Insurance companies must fully cover, without charge, regular checkups and tests that help you prevent illness, such as mammograms or eye and foot exams for diabetics.

4. Ends Dropping of Coverage for Seriously Ill: Insurance companies will be prohibited from dropping or watering down insurance coverage for those who become seriously ill.

5. Ends Gender Discrimination: Insurance companies will be prohibited from charging you more because of your gender.

6. Ends Annual or Lifetime Caps on Coverage: Insurance companies will be prevented from placing annual or lifetime caps on the coverage you receive.

7. Extends Coverage for Young Adults: Children would continue to be eligible for family coverage through the age of 26.

8. Guarantees Insurance Renewal: Insurance companies will be required to renew any policy as long as the policyholder pays their premium in full. Insurance companies won't be allowed to refuse renewal because someone became sick.



Here are 8 of the top MYTHS (aka lies) about the health insurance reform being proposed by the Obama administration.

COMMON MYTHS ABOUT HEALTH INSURANCE REFORM

1. It's a myth that reform will mean a "government takeover" of health care or lead to "rationing." To the contrary, reform will forbid many forms of rationing that are currently being used by insurance companies.

2. It's a myth that reform will bust the budget. To the contrary, the President has identified ways to pay for the vast majority of the up-front costs by cutting waste, fraud, and abuse within existing government health programs; ending big subsidies to insurance companies; and increasing efficiency with such steps as coordinating care and streamlining paperwork. In the long term, reform can help bring down costs that will otherwise lead to a fiscal crisis.

3. It's a malicious myth that reform would encourage or even require euthanasia for seniors. For seniors who want to consult with their family and physicians about end-of life decisions, reform will help to cover these voluntary, private consultations for those who want help with these personal and difficult family decisions.

4. It's a myth that health insurance reform will affect veterans' access to the care they get now. To the contrary, the President's budget significantly expands coverage under the VA, extending care to 500,000 more veterans who were previously excluded. The VA Healthcare system will continue to be available for all eligible veterans.

5. It's a myth that health insurance reform will hurt small businesses. To the contrary, reform will ease the burdens on small businesses, provide tax credits to help them pay for employee coverage and help level the playing field with big firms who pay much less to cover their employees on average.

6. It's myth that Health Insurance Reform would be financed by cutting Medicare benefits. To the contrary, reform will improve the long-term financial health of Medicare, ensure better coordination, eliminate waste and unnecessary subsidies to insurance companies, and help to close the Medicare "doughnut" hole to make prescription drugs more affordable for seniors.

7. It's myth that reform will force you out of your current insurance plan or force you to change doctors. To the contrary, reform will expand your choices, not eliminate them.

8. It is an absurd myth that government will be in charge of your bank accounts. Health insurance reform will simplify administration, making it easier and more convenient for you to pay bills in a method that you choose. Just like paying a phone bill or a utility bill, you can pay by traditional check, or by a direct electronic payment. And forms will be standardized so they will be easier to understand. The choice is up to you - and the same rules of privacy will apply as they do for all other electronic payments that people make.
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Old 09-07-2009, 06:53 PM   #698
DanaC
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Originally Posted by TheMercenary View Post
I reference what I post. If I have not please show me where and I will correct it. I certainly have not posted something that someone else wrote as propaganda and said it was my own. I think that is dishonest.
Sorry, you're quite right. I should have said straight from somebody else's arse :P
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Originally Posted by Rhianne View Post
If I had a pound for every time Torys have said they are going to sort out the country's problems then I'd be rich enough to live under one of their governments.
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
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Old 09-07-2009, 06:59 PM   #699
TheMercenary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
Sorry, you're quite right. I should have said straight from somebody else's arse :P
sure.
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Old 09-07-2009, 08:20 PM   #700
Radar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMercenary View Post
WOW Radar, I thought you would be a little more original than become a mouth piece for David Axlerod. At least you could have referenced it as not being your own.

That is straight from the mouth of the White House.

http://www.democraticunderground.com...ss=389x6296060

Yes, it is straight from the White House, which gives it more credibility than any of the lies, propaganda, stupidity, and smear campaigns by the Republican Party or the corrupt insurance companies who are funding them. The White House has more credibility than blithering idiots and pathological liars like Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Lou Dobbs, etc.

I don't need to reference the post. These are widely known and indisputable facts, and I assumed if you weren't totally retarded, you'd know where it came from.

Nowhere did I take credit for the information. I merely said that they were facts and myths pertaining to the forthcoming health care reforms and I thought it obvious that I was pasting something. But if it makes you feel better, here's the sources.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-ins...er-protections


http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/
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Old 09-07-2009, 08:40 PM   #701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar View Post
I'm as libertarian as anyone can get, but I still believe that there are some things that should not have a profit motive attached to them, and health care is one of them.
Just curious, but why do you pick this facet of life out and deem it necessary to receive government intervention as opposed to letting the free hand of the market fix the problem like everything else? Surely, if people didn't like the care they were getting from current insurance providers and wanted something better, any number of competing businesses would thrive off the desires of the customers and provide the services people want. Why no "if you don't like it, don't buy it/start your own"?
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Old 09-07-2009, 10:43 PM   #702
Radar
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Well to be honest Kitsune, we aren't likely to get free markets in America any time soon. More and more people are having more and more of their money stolen from them, and companies who want loyalty from employees are offering none in return.

Well over 80% of what the American government takes part in or legislates over is in blatant disregard and direct violation of the U.S. Constitution.

I'd rather not be robbed at all. I'd rather we had free markets entirely. But as long as I'm going to be robbed anyway, I'd rather the money stolen from me be spent on something that improves the lives of Americans like hospitals, beds, medicine, and doctors than bombs, fighter jets, missiles, and tanks for an unconstitutional war of aggression that doesn't help or defend any Americans like those in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The insurance companies don't act in good faith, because we don't have free markets. We have a system of mercantilism where businesses are buying the influence of elected officials openly and where those people put the needs and desires of the highest payer above those of the American people. Legislation and regulations are made to prevent new businesses from starting up to compete with politically influential ones.

Since it's less likely that I'll stop getting robbed to pay for unconstitutional government programs I don't like, I may as well push to have the money that will be stolen from me anyway, to have something that doesn't suck or kill people.

Nobody can deny that the quality of care in the UK, France, or Canada is superior to the care received in America even when you have great insurance, and these places pay a fraction of what Americans pay.

I used to buy into the often spread lies about "socialized medicine" and how people in Canada were coming to America for medical procedures. When I looked further into it and actually went to the UK and Canada, I found that they weren't waiting in line for medical care like Russians waited for bread, they weren't getting substandard care, they weren't being turned down for care based on age, etc.

The few Canadians who do seek medical care in America are most often coming here for elective surgeries like boob jobs, laser eye surgery, lap band surgery, etc. and not medically necessary operations.

For every Canadian who seeks medical care or medicines from America there are a hundred or more Americans seeking medical care or medicines from Canada.


It's hard to argue with what has a proven track record, and any system that leaves millions of people without health care and some people dying in the streets because they can't afford care is a flawed one. Any system where your coverage can be jerked out from under you when you need it the most is a flawed one. Any system where you can be dropped because you forgot to tell your insurance company you had your tonsils out when you were 9 years old is a flawed one. Any system where you can lose your health care coverage that you've paid for in good faith simply because you got sick is a flawed one. Any system where people lose their homes or businesses and go bankrupt because they can't afford medical care, is a flawed one.


Are there flaws in single-payer health care systems like the UK? Yes, but they are minuscule in comparison.


I'd have less of a problem with a profit motive being attached to health care if Americans weren't already being robbed to pay for things they don't want or need, and insurance companies weren't being given a license to cheat and steal from Americans who are in need of medical care and who have paid for it in good faith. But until that day happens, I'll stick with what costs the least and works the best.
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:12 AM   #703
TheMercenary
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This is a good summary of the problems we face with the current approach.

Quote:
That’s the premise behind today’s incremental approach to health-care reform. Though details of the legislation are still being negotiated, its principles are a reprise of previous reforms—addressing access to health care by expanding government aid to those without adequate insurance, while attempting to control rising costs through centrally administered initiatives. Some of the ideas now on the table may well be sensible in the context of our current system. But fundamentally, the “comprehensive” reform being contemplated merely cements in place the current system—insurance-based, employment-centered, administratively complex. It addresses the underlying causes of our health-care crisis only obliquely, if at all; indeed, by extending the current system to more people, it will likely increase the ultimate cost of true reform.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:20 AM   #704
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True reform of course being a single-payer system that eliminates insurance companies from health care all together.
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Old 09-08-2009, 05:58 PM   #705
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True reform of course being a single-payer system that eliminates insurance companies from health care all together.
I can't completely agree or disagree with this statement. The problem is so much more complex and convoluted.
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