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Old 05-08-2012, 01:48 PM   #136
Ibby
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I'm sure I've said ableist things before. I'm sure I've said racist things before. I'm sure I've said sexist things before. When I don't intend them that way, or don't think I intend them that way, I renounce it, because I know how easy it can be to be offensive without meaning to be. If someone wants to peg ANYTHING i say as ___-ist, i almost always take their word for it, if i feel like they construed me accurately and still found it offensive. Just like it's not my place to say whether or not someone else's comments are offensive to black people, or to christians, or to any other group I'm not part of, I'm not going to try to defend something that was just plain old in bad taste and offensive, unless the offense comes from either a misreading, a misunderstanding, or from something I'm willing to stand by.
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:51 PM   #137
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*nods*

Oh I get it. I just don't like the double standard you are apparently being held to by others.
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If I had a pound for every time Torys have said they are going to sort out the country's problems then I'd be rich enough to live under one of their governments.
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:54 PM   #138
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I just think that nothing on the level of personal attacks deserves ____-ism as a response, even when provoked. I think there should be a more or less inviolable rule against it. I don't really see where the double standard lies.
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:56 PM   #139
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I have to stop reading this thread. It's turning me into an anti-ist-ist.
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Old 05-08-2012, 01:58 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibram View Post
I just think that nothing on the level of personal attacks deserves ____-ism as a response, even when provoked. I think there should be a more or less inviolable rule against it. I don't really see where the double standard lies.
The double standard lies where you are picked up on for something that could, at a stretch be seen as 'ableist' yet outright bigotry which can be nothing but outright bigotry is something which should just be let past.

The doublestandard exists where your hurt, and your personal buttons are considered petty and hypocritical whilst another's should be regarded and taken into account.
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If I had a pound for every time Torys have said they are going to sort out the country's problems then I'd be rich enough to live under one of their governments.
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:06 PM   #141
Ibby
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And I guess I disagree cause no amount of me being attack justifies that sort of response. I don't think JB should get a pass for his wild intolerance, and I think most of us haven't given him one. I don't think I should get a pass if I cross the line into ableism, either.
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:23 PM   #142
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Incidentally, whilst we're talking about buttons. I had a friend many years ago, back in Bolton, who went through a sex change. When I met her, she was going through the mandatory two years of living as her chosen sex. Going for a drink with her was an education. Shocking levels of outright hostility.

Currently I have a friend who is partway through her change of gender. She has been trying to get onto a PhD course for the last two years. They seem interested until they meet her. Now, that could be because she can be a little full-on...but that is the sort of thing that will put off that or this admissions tutor...I wouldn't have expected it to carry across five or six institutions.


When I was around 15, my elder cousin had the ever loving shit kicked out of him for being gay. I remember very clearly the shape of his face for several weeks afterwards.

I also, as Sundae alluded to, have had my share of contact with the wonderful world of mental distress. Aside from my own forays into treatment, I have friends and family members who've been through that mill, some very dark indeed. And as someone who taught, though briefly, learning disabled adults, I find my hackles rising when someone is targeted or dismissed for a lack of intelligence or formal education.

Everything happens on a scale.

Nothing about JB's mental health or intelligence means he wouldn't get Polari. His politics and his religion might. So you stood from your greater height of intelligence and education and looked down on the guy who wifully refuses education in favour of religious salves. When I hear you say that schizophrenics are worthless and wouldn't be allowed to live in your preferred world order, I'll deem you to be on the same turf.
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If I had a pound for every time Torys have said they are going to sort out the country's problems then I'd be rich enough to live under one of their governments.
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:42 PM   #143
DanaC
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@ JBK: here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polari

That gives you a potted history of the language (actually, a kind of secret slang/code) and how it fits into British culture.
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Originally Posted by Rhianne View Post
If I had a pound for every time Torys have said they are going to sort out the country's problems then I'd be rich enough to live under one of their governments.
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:48 PM   #144
DanaC
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Ha! I found a tube!



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Originally Posted by Rhianne View Post
If I had a pound for every time Torys have said they are going to sort out the country's problems then I'd be rich enough to live under one of their governments.
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:31 PM   #145
DanaC
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Y'know. If every slight becomes an ism, it will get veryhard to spot the dangerous ones :p
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Originally Posted by Rhianne View Post
If I had a pound for every time Torys have said they are going to sort out the country's problems then I'd be rich enough to live under one of their governments.
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
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Old 05-09-2012, 08:18 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Ibram View Post
Thanks for the support, dana and sundae, but in the case of my "you won't understand" comment, no, IM's right. It was out of line. Like I said, it was ableist and condescending, and as someone who's also struggled with mental health issues I should totally know better. It was an unfair dig at his mental problems, and that should be just as out of line - to anyone, hurt or not - as attacking me for my identity or whatever. I apologise to JB and to IM - it was, let me be clear, out of line for me to hit back that way. It was a reflection of the fact that I, to be honest, don't particularly appreciate JB's contribution to the forum, and find myself at best frustrated by the disingenuousness with which he responds to topics - but making that into a dig at his mental health issues, so condescendingly, IS out of line.
Ibram, you are a class act. Thank your for taking the time to understand where I was coming from.

We've espoused "teaching" the socially inept, but it seems that is only lip service in some cases. My point was that he asked a question, and it was nice of you to explain it to him, and the 'never understand' was unneccessary. It's NOT a huge thing, of course, but I think it needed noted.

I really never thought JBK meant that comment as much more than a really poor attempt at humor and trying to fit in. Maybe I've self-appointed myself as his advocate. *shrugs* So what? I am not ready to give up on him, and I do like a lot of his contributions and find him interesting.

He was rightfully called on it. But not forgiven nor did anyone try to understand anything beyond their own ire.

But you did. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
*nods*

Oh I get it. I just don't like the double standard you are apparently being held to by others.
No. I told JBK his words were inappropriate too. I didn't try to ride him out on a rail because of it, but I told him he was wrong. I used the word: wrong.

Choose to see the whole picture.

----------------------------------

Though there is much of my life experience no one here will ever know about, don't assume that I haven't been through my share of hell. Your hell is not my hell, my hell is not yours. I just choose to keep much of it where it should be: hidden in the dark recesses. That pain is intricately mine and no one elses. If you cut me, I do indeed bleed. My mild irritants...sure, you'll hear all about those. I do hope for the same considerations of what might be of what is not known, as to the buttons.

And I'm glad this whole ordeal maybe turned into a teaching/learning moment for some of us, me included.

Thanks again, Ibram.
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:13 AM   #147
DanaC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infinite monkey View Post

----------------------------------

Though there is much of my life experience no one here will ever know about, don't assume that I haven't been through my share of hell. Your hell is not my hell, my hell is not yours. I just choose to keep much of it where it should be: hidden in the dark recesses. That pain is intricately mine and no one elses. If you cut me, I do indeed bleed. My mild irritants...sure, you'll hear all about those. I do hope for the same considerations of what might be of what is not known, as to the buttons.
.
That is exactly the point I was trying to make:p
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Originally Posted by Rhianne View Post
If I had a pound for every time Torys have said they are going to sort out the country's problems then I'd be rich enough to live under one of their governments.
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:30 PM   #148
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Fair enough.
I was hung up on the original posts.
I put JB on ignore precisely because I didn't think it fair to keep responding to him. Because it turns out all I could do was take cheap shots.

Introducing Polari was not targeted.
I'm a cunning linguist and it amuses me - I've raised it in other threads. I grew up with the Julian and Sandy sketches on Round the Horne - to me it brings back the smell of a Sunday roast slowly cooking in the oven.

I admit I can't see the whole picture.
My bad.
If he'd made racist comments it would always colour [ha] my opinion of him.
He made anti-gay comments and I will assume he is homophobic unless something he writes proves otherwise. And yes, that means taking him off Ignore and being adult enough not to snipe at him. I'm trying.
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