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Old 01-24-2007, 05:31 PM   #136
Undertoad
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Jackie is currently housing a girl whose parents threw her out for not accepting Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior.

Of course she was 18 and there were no necklaces involved.

You want to parent that way, don't come lookin' to me for advice. Jackie knows how I support the strong single moms with button-pushin' boys, but only the ones who take kids in, not the ones who throw 'em out as a parenting method.
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Old 01-24-2007, 05:46 PM   #137
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Lemme see if I've got this right. This is the boy who you gave up for adoption and didn't see till he was 7 after his father murdered someone, dismembered the body and spread parts all over, right?
Then, after a whole bunch of bullshit between YOUR SON and you, he reached out in a time of need - as immature and insane seeming as it may have been and you are not responding because of a necklace his girlfriend gave him that he chose not to take off as a teenager (18 I think).

Just trying to get things straight here before I consider offering any input.
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Old 01-24-2007, 06:23 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by yesman065 View Post
Lemme see if I've got this right. This is the boy who you gave up for adoption and didn't see till he was 7 after his father murdered someone, dismembered the body and spread parts all over, right?
Essentially, yes.

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Then, after a whole bunch of bullshit between YOUR SON and you, he reached out in a time of need - as immature and insane seeming as it may have been and you are not responding because of a necklace his girlfriend gave him that he chose not to take off as a teenager (18 I think).
No.

After a whole bunch of bullshit between us, when he did nothing but disrespect me and call me names in my own home while he was completely dependant upon me for his care, shelter and other, it became (since he was going to run away again) a choice of either watch him go into foster care (mandated by the state since he is by law considered an undisciplined juvenile) or send him to David's house.

David was kind enough and cares enough about him to take him into his home. When this happened, he not ONCE made an effort to "rebuild our relationship", apologize for ANYTHING he'd done, or even accept responsibility for ANY choices he made.

The incident of the necklace 18 months ago was simply the proverbial straw, when his passive-aggressive defiance that I had been dealing with for some time finally became open rebellion.

And I'm not responding because *I know* I'm too hurt and pissed off to do anything constructive right now. If I were to respond at this point, it would be a bad thing. I'm not ruling out responding later. Just that I don't think I should do it right now.

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Just trying to get things straight here before I consider offering any input.
I appreciate that.
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Old 01-24-2007, 06:31 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Jackie is currently housing a girl whose parents threw her out for not accepting Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior.
Justin chose not to do that either, but that's not why I kicked him out.

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Of course she was 18 and there were no necklaces involved.
I really don't undertand why everyone is focused on the necklace and is completely ignoring everything else.

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You want to parent that way, don't come lookin' to me for advice.
Parent what way, exactly? Demanding a minimum of respect? Not tolerating him cursing me out? Letting him go to Dave's as opposed to foster care?

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Jackie knows how I support the strong single moms with button-pushin' boys, but only the ones who take kids in, not the ones who throw 'em out as a parenting method.
I didn't throw him out as a parenting method, it was that or foster care. Living with the man he'd called dad for 12 years or going to the home of complete strangers until he was 21 years old (4 years at the time). Hmmmmm..
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Old 01-24-2007, 06:43 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by OnyxCougar View Post
I really don't undertand why everyone is focused on the necklace and is completely ignoring everything else.
Because in your telling of the tale the paper-clip necklace plays a pivotal role in the story.

I can't speak for the others, but your reported behavior in relation to this particular incident paints you a tad, with all due respect, bat-shit insane.

If he was seeing things that weren't there (schizophrenia, or schizo-type personality disorder?), that seems like it might've been time to send him for some therapy.

Also, you seem to see things in a very black and white way. Instead of being tolerant it seems like your modus-operandi is to cut deep and hard.

The kid didn't reach out to mend your relationship (not that the burden should fall to hard on someone who is still very young and probably doesn't understand how deeply he may regret the past)? He sounds damaged enough to not know how.

(This is all based on the last couple of OC's posts. I really am not sure I want to post it, but here it goes despite the misgivings.)
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Old 01-24-2007, 07:08 PM   #141
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You gave him a my-way-or-leave-the-house ultimatum over a necklace when he was 17.

When he chose to leave you took it as stupidly sneaky for him to provide his own way back in. (Not "a boy in trouble is still asking, in his own way, for my support")

You irrationally hated his girlfriend, disrespected her belief systems, and called her defiling names because of his changes in behavior.

You called him a pussy for not being directly confrontational with you. You called him worse when he *was* confrontational. And now you wonder why he's passive-aggressive?? That's a classic response to "You're gonna get it if you do -- and you're gonna get it worse if you don't." His only way to control the situation is to do withdraw.
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Old 01-24-2007, 07:12 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Elspode View Post
First off, for you newer Cellarites, OC has been around the block a time or two, and she knows from magick, and those who use it. *You* don't have to believe in it if those involved do. That said, if OC thought the necklace was having an adverse affect on The Boy (try to remember that he thought computer pictures were becoming living demons, apparently), then she, knowing what she knows and believing what she believes, was well within her rights as a custodial parent and mother to make The Boy remove said item.
And only until he learned what it meant and how it could be used, in an effort to teach him how to keep himself safe from the things he was *not* safe from. All he had to do was ask Miss Thang, and she would have told him her answer, and I probably would have accepted it enough to let him wear it, while giving him further education.

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When The Boy refused to do so, he was essentially throwing off the yoke of parental restraint. At this point, he has accepted responsbility for himself, and whatever comes afterward. Had he understood one single thing *about* Wicca, he would have known this first off, because self-responsibility and self-determination are basic, fundamental tenets of the path, well before you ever start mucking around with magick.
He straight up told me that he didn't care about Wicca, didn't want to hear about Christianity. I told him if he didn't care about Wicca, he needs to remove a Wiccan religious symbol from his neck. It's the equivalent of blaspheme. Why would you even want to wear it if you're not a believer in that religion?

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The Boy told her to go stuff herself, and in a couple of different, disrespectful ways. No apologies seem to be forthcoming, and his subsequent contacts seem designed to either provoke, defend or mine for information...none of it intended to reconcile between them. In the meantime, The Boy has continued to screw up his life, and he's managed to find a girl who is more than happy to help him maximize the drama in all of this, probably because it makes her that much more the center of *everyone's* attentions. You know the old saying, "Don't feed the troll"? HickHo is looking to be fed, folks.
Thank you for noticing that. It was a crucial thing for me that nobody else seems to recognize.

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OC - I know it hurts, I know you're going to be asking yourself if what you've done was right, and I know you feel like a shitty mother.
I do. And David telling me for years that I am isn't helping. One small triumph, my mother was talking to him a few weeks ago and said something along the lines of, "Now do you see why she sent him to you?" and he said, "yes, now I understand." this man, who has propped himself up on being the more mature one, more responsible one, better caretaker, better parent, was not able to do better than I did. It may seem like a petty thing, but it was a vindication for me.

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Raising kids is easy; building grownups is not. The Boy is now in the process of becoming The Man. You've been down this path before in your own life, and The Boy is uninterested in what you learned through so much pain along the way.
If you only knew how I agonized over what to tell him when, how to tell him, what effect it would have on him. It's not an easy thing to tell your son his father is a murderer and is never getting out of prison. It's worse when you have to tell him that he killed the man I was going to marry. Even worse, how he did it. And that he isn't sorry. And doesn't even want to see his son. Ever.

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Therefore, let him learn his own lessons, take his own responsibility, and...if he survives the experience...be able to look back someday and realize that he could have saved a lot of trouble if he'd listened. Perhaps he will then be able to impart those lessons to his own progeny.
It's so hard. It's hard because it's obvious that he isn't learning from anything I told him. Oh, he took it in, then discarded it.

I suppose there are very few of us that actually listened to our parents and didn't think our way was better, easier, faster. It's just that he's doing it on such a monumental scale.

And that's why I'm having a hard time giving him advice yet again. I *know* he's not going to do what I tell him he needs to do, because I already have, and he hasn't done it. His grandmother has told him to do the same thing, he hasn't done it. Dave tells him the same thing, and he hasn't done it.

He told me he wanted me to be happy for him.

I've always been honest with him. I asked him what part I was supposed to be happy about. the fact he was there at all and not living with me? Can't be happy about that. The fact that he had sex with this girl unmarried? I can't be happy about that. The fact that he let his mouth ramble at school so he got expelled and now has a much harder road to pave? Can't be happy about that. The fact that after the initial scare and all my warnings, his grandmother's warnings, and basic common freaking sense, he has unprotected sex with this 16 year old girl when he's 18? Can't be happy about ANY of that. The fact that she got pregnant? Are you kidding me? The fact that she's now broken up with him and going to take (what could be) his child to Germany with her ex boyfriend?

Now I find out she's doing drugs while pregnant with (what could be) his child?

What part of this is supposed to make me happy? What part of that can I, as a parent, be happy about?

Every parent makes mistakes. I've certainly made my fair share, not just as a parent, but in life. But I have ALWAYS paid for them. He doesn't even want to accept the responsibility for even the reasons he went to Dave's.

It's not like I had alot of rules, people. Clean your room, go to school, do your homework, clean up after yourself, do your own laundry. Whenever he went out, he took the phone so if he needed a ride home, he could call me. One of his friend's dads owned a beer bar downtown, and his friend was the DJ. I let him hang out with his friend (behind the DJ cage) until 3am, when his friend would bring him home. I let him see Miss Thang whenever he wanted, as long as his chores were done and he was keeping up on his job and school. He got to keep his WHOLE paycheck (after paying me back for the phone bill he ran up.) She would come over on the weekends, and he would cook for us, since he loves cooking. He was in ROTC and went to camps and events out of state. It's not like I was this huge ogre.

Until he got disrespectful. Ditching school. Telling me he's going to work and turns out he was at Miss Things house. Lying about where he was going, coming back late. Picking on his little brother (the autistic one) and I don't mean like how brothers pick on brothers, I mean he would have bruises.

Let me give you another example. By this time, I was logging his MSN. I didn't read them until I had a reason, but I wanted to have them just in case I did have a reason. When he lied about going to work when he was actually at Miss Thangs house, I finally started reading them. He told her, "Yeah, I told my mom to kiss my white ass when she told me I couldn't come see you because it was a school night. She cried and stuff and I just walked out. Like she's going to do anything to me." (that's a paraphrase)

Now, I understand the boy is going to try to make himself look big and bad to his girlfriend, but this was, in my mind, completely over the top. I didn't say anything to him, because I didn't want him to know I was logging, or that I had read it. It was shortly after this that the necklace thing happened.

I'm rambling. I don't even remember what the point I was trying to make is anymore. I suppose I need to be ready for the people that think I'm some monster for the way I reacted. But really, read the WHOLE thread first, then try to put yourself into my shoes before you comment.

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Hang in there.
[cuddle] Thanks, Patrick. I've missed you and Bruce the most while I was gone. I hope things are going well for you and Mrs. 'Spode and your family. Bryan is really gaining progress, and we have him in regular classes now. The doctors are testing him in February to see if they want to upgrade him from Autistic to formally calling him an Asperger's. (We knew for years he was displaying Asperger's symptoms, but they're going to see if they want to change his "label".) Keep your fingers crossed for us.
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Old 01-24-2007, 07:27 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
You gave him a my-way-or-leave-the-house ultimatum over a necklace when he was 17.
No. I gave him a my way or the highway over him being openly disrespectful and defiant of me, my rules, in MY home.

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When he chose to leave you took it as stupidly sneaky for him to provide his own way back in. (Not "a boy in trouble is still asking, in his own way, for my support")
No, he did it strictly so that he could come back while I was at work at get the rest of his stuff that he didn't take when he left the first time. He told my husband as much when he DID come back the first time.

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You irrationally hated his girlfriend, disrespected her belief systems, and called her defiling names because of his changes in behavior.
I never hated her. I hated how my son behaved when he was with her. (I'm assuming you mean the one here, not the pregnant one down there.) I never disrespected her belief systems. I used to be a high priestess in her belief system. In fact, she once asked me to teach her about her belief system. I told her I no longer practiced, and why, and she was fine with that.

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You called him a pussy for not being directly confrontational with you. You called him worse when he *was* confrontational. And now you wonder why he's passive-aggressive?? That's a classic response to "You're gonna get it if you do -- and you're gonna get it worse if you don't." His only way to control the situation is to do withdraw.
I'm not proud of how I handled that. I lost my cool and yes, I overreacted. I was stressed out from all of the stuff that had happened, and all of this going on while I've got my other kids to worry about, my friend and her husband and newborn baby staying with us, shit going down at work, and basically life in general. It's not like all these events happened in a vaccuum. I told you all that in an effort to be as fair and balanced in my posts as I can. I don't "wonder why he's passive aggressive". He's got way more reasons to be passive-aggressive than me calling him a pussy when he won't back up his mouth.

As I said, everything was fine until he started dating Miss Thang and the dick took over day to day functions. I don't like the dick, and after REPEATED requests for him to fall in line, and HOURS of talking and trying to reason with him, he did it anyway. I had lost positive control and it was literally a matter of foster care or Dave's house.

Which would you have had me do?
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Old 01-24-2007, 07:47 PM   #144
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Because in your telling of the tale the paper-clip necklace plays a pivotal role in the story.
It's pivotal in the sense that it was an open, in your face rebellion on his part. A rebellion he knew the consequences of before he started down that road. He made the choice to defy me, knowing what my reaction would be. It was this decision that set him on this path.

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I can't speak for the others, but your reported behavior in relation to this particular incident paints you a tad, with all due respect, bat-shit insane.
I don't see it. I had told him and told him and he KNEW how I would react, he KNEW it meant he would have to leave. I told him that RIGHT before he made his decision! Am I supposed to then say, oh, well, I guess I shouldn't do what I've told you time and time I again I would do in this situation. I'm sorry, I would not, and IMO, should not have relented and accepted this openly hostile, disrespectful behavior.

If I tell you every day that if you press the blue button I will slap you, and one day you press the button, if I'm consistant, I need to slap you. What happens if I don't slap you? You can't trust my word, and then ANYTHING I've said up to that point, and anything after is nullified.

He pressed the button. I slapped him.

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If he was seeing things that weren't there (schizophrenia, or schizo-type personality disorder?), that seems like it might've been time to send him for some therapy.
Two things here.... One, I had tried to send him for therapy twice before, for the whole back story purposes, and he lied so much to the therapists that they told me not to bother to waste my money, because he didn't want help and until he did there was nothing they could do.

Two, because of my prior beliefs, and the beliefs held by the person that made the necklace, I was pretty sure that a mental disorder was not the case here. Demons exist, whether you believe it or not. Been there, seen that, and know how to fix it. Can't fix it unless the person involved wants it fixed, too.

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Also, you seem to see things in a very black and white way. Instead of being tolerant it seems like your modus-operandi is to cut deep and hard.
This is pretty accurate. I tend to see things in those terms. I do see in grey in things, but generally it's on a spectrum, and on one side of the middle line or the other. It's been a hard life, with hard experiences that not many people (God willing) will have to endure. (If you didn't read the whole thread, you're missing that part of the story.) Life is hard, and you get bitch slapped when you make the wrong decisions. I learned it early, and I tried, God knows I tried, to warn him. To tell him when I screwed up. To show him the potholes in an effort to get him to go around them. But he didn't believe me.

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The kid didn't reach out to mend your relationship (not that the burden should fall to hard on someone who is still very young and probably doesn't understand how deeply he may regret the past)? He sounds damaged enough to not know how.
First, I don't consider 17.5 to be "very young". My duaghter is 9, she is very young. He was man enough to call me a mother fucking bitch in my house, he can be man enough to at least apologize. (Which to this day he's never done, even when my husband and mother told him it might help.) He's man enough to have a child and he's willing (see emails) to go toe to toe to keep it. But he's not man enough to send me an email to let me know how he's doing? I have a problem with your assertion.
Quote:
(This is all based on the last couple of OC's posts. I really am not sure I want to post it, but here it goes despite the misgivings.)
It just occurred to me that I'm doing alot of defending myself. I asked for opinion, and I got it, and now I feel like I'm arguing. In the great big scheme of things I guess I was looking for more Els and less UT. My main worry here is that you don't understand everything that was going on. The necklace wasn't the ONLY thing, it was the LAST of a long line of things, and the FIRST time he was openly defiant.

I guess what I really wanted suggestion on was the email portion of the posts, not "Gee, you sure fucked up by letting it get to this point." I figured that part out for myself, my question is, knowing what you know, what course do I take now?
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Old 01-24-2007, 08:02 PM   #145
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I don't see it. I had told him and told him and he KNEW how I would react, he KNEW it meant he would have to leave. I told him that RIGHT before he made his decision!
That's part of the insanity. You told him that if he wore a necklace his girlfriend made for him, you would kick him out of the house.
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Old 01-24-2007, 08:10 PM   #146
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The part you don't want to hear might be important. Advice (that you've asked for!) is another thing that doesn't exist in a vacuum.
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Old 01-24-2007, 08:17 PM   #147
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For starts Jackie's lad is 19 and has as many if not more issues as an ADHD sufferer with a dad who, unfortunately, survived and thrived to turn the kids against her systematically and provide no support. So I have seen it. I have seen the boy screaming at the top of his lungs that he hates her, in the back of my vehicle, and resisted the urge to stop the truck right there and then and toss him out in the middle of nowhere. Because even though he's 19, he's a boy, and he's confused. This is what ADHD boys with father issues are. (Plus, it's not my business)

Of course my best parenting decision ever was not to become one. So what do I know? Nothing. That said,

= I would stop putting control issues into "man/not-a-man/pussy" terms at all. You don't do the lad any favors by accidentally or on-purpose emasculating him in the middle of trying to figure it all out. And you're not a man, if I may be so bold, and so you really have no idea. So neither does he.

= You don't like each other. You press each other's buttons. When was that license for you to indignantly give up before the job of parenting was done? Wasn't it harder because he needed you more than you thought? Wasn't that need fulfilling to you in some way? Isn't that the root of what it is to be a parent?

= If you were given the terms of living with someone for free but under their bizarre and strict rules, including determining the nature and extent of your relationships... or just leaving for whichever way the four winds blew... wouldn't you pick the latter? Wouldn't the bright, adventurous, young person always take the latter? Wouldn't you think much less of a young person who chose the safe but rule-laden route?
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Old 01-24-2007, 08:23 PM   #148
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Old 01-24-2007, 11:07 PM   #149
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The necklace isn't important in itself. It just happened to be subject at hand when the struggle, that had been going on since he met "Miss Thang", came to a head.

Sure, the boy has issues. It would be expected, considering his childhood, but his behavior since he hooked up with this girl is absolutely unacceptable. She seems to have bolstered his ego, his confidence that he could assert himself, which is really funny considering she played him like a violin.

Apparently he thought he could win her respect and adulation by playing the tough guy when in truth he was just talking shit and being more sneaky and dishonest than ever. I'm thinking of things you didn't cover in this "update", but posted elsewhere, that happened leading up to the necklace showdown.
That's why I say the necklace wasn't important, it could have happened over a pizza, it was just time.

I think you made a mistake not letting your husband share in handling the boy from the start. You could have at least played the good parent/bad parent double team routine, and when he was pushing hard, hand off and cool off. But that's water over the dam, now.

This business of "I'll answer your question when you answer my question" is a risky tact when you're toe to toe. It may be possible on IM, but I doubt it without the visual clues. By email, especially when access is limited (library), it just makes matters worse. It gives both parties too much time to supply their own imagined answers to their questions and imagine a whole worst case scenario conversation. So by the time they do get an answer, it either reinforces what they've already decided the answer is... or you're lying.
In emails, talk straight, be honest and to the point, because innuendo, inflection, hints, irony and subtlety don't work.

It's a shame it's come to this but you two have been making each other nuts for a very, very long time. I'd have killed the fucker years ago. The way it went down is soap opera bizarre, but your whole life has been that bizarre, so I'm not really surprised.

All in all its just another brick in the wall.
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Old 01-25-2007, 09:13 AM   #150
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That's part of the insanity. You told him that if he wore a necklace his girlfriend made for him, you would kick him out of the house.
I feel like this is a gross oversimplification. The issue, in the end, is not the necklace, it is the defiance of parental authority. The subject matter is largely irrelevant. If her son chose to tell her to stuff it, then he is, defacto, accepting the consequences of what comes after.

I've been down to this point countless times with my kids...I think something should be one way, and they want it another way, and so we arrive at the "Where you gonna live and whatcha gonna eat?" point. Move out, and do what you wish, and I'll wish you the best. Stay here, and I have the final say. This is non-neogtiable. If you don't have that line with your older children, you *will* get used, walked on, abused, swindled and generally compromised - not because your kids don't love you, but because they have not yet learned about give and take, mutual backscratching, and all the other social niceties that adults have experienced.

Kids are used to being supported, cared for, taking a free ride. So, when they finally think they are old enough to do what they want, they tend to not remember that there's countless other responsibilities that go along with that freedom. All they know is what the child learned, and that doesn't include not having mommy or daddy fix their screwups, tend their booboos, give them allowance money.

It is a difficult transition for everyone involved. Could OC have handled things a little better? Sure. We all can. But her standing on principles of respect and obedience to a child living under her roof is not at all out of line.
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