Bully-induced Suicide

I know this is probably gonna spark a heavy debate...or maybe not, but I'd like to know your thoughts on kids committing suicide as a result of being bullied.

I'm all but certain that there's not a one-to-one causation here. Bullying may be a contributing factor to the end result, but I find it very hard to believe that it was the all-sufficient cause of these kids committing suicide.

The full complexity of these situations doesn't make for good news coverage though, and "epidemics" grab more attention if they have a single, easily understood cause.

We went around on this a while ago but I don't remember which thread.

smoothmoniker;690702 wrote:

I'm all but certain that there's not a one-to-one causation here. Bullying may be a contributing factor to the end result, but I find it very hard to believe that it was the all-sufficient cause of these kids committing suicide.

The full complexity of these situations doesn't make for good news coverage though, and "epidemics" grab more attention if they have a single, easily understood cause.

Interesting. I don't think any of the others I've talked to took this into consideration. OTOH, in most cases, the kids being bullied won't tell their parents about this, so the frustrations of constant bullying builds up to the point that the kid just decides to end his/her own life cuz they don't think they have any other option.

xoxoxoBruce;690708 wrote:

We went around on this a while ago but I don't remember which thread.

I figured as much, but I was too lazy to search for it.

smoothmoniker;690702 wrote:

I'm all but certain that there's not a one-to-one causation here. Bullying may be a contributing factor to the end result, but I find it very hard to believe that it was the all-sufficient cause of these kids committing suicide.

The full complexity of these situations doesn't make for good news coverage though, and "epidemics" grab more attention if they have a single, easily understood cause.

I agree to a point: but then again, I also think it depends on the scale and intensity of the bullying. Being bullied by a couple of people in class can be distressing; beng ostracised by your entire class and bullied on a regular basis can become intolerable, and if it goes on for an extended length of time I can well see that driving someone to drastic measures. I am sure that some of kids who've committed suicide have done so as a direct response to bullying.



[eta] Data!!!!! How ya been?

DanaC;690735 wrote:

I agree to a point: but then again, I also think it depends on the scale and intensity of the bullying. Being bullied by a couple of people in class can be distressing; beng ostracised by your entire class and bullied on a regular basis can become intolerable, and if it goes on for an extended length of time I can well see that driving someone to drastic measures. I am sure that some of kids who've committed suicide have done so as a direct response to bullying.

Every person is different so I can't speak for everyone but I feel it is largely the emptiness of life which gets to people. When you hate your life and don't see anyway out of it, creating a void where it feels like your soul should be. It's hard for high schoolers to believe that life will get better when all they know is loneliness. That is why that "it gets better" campaign will probably have some tremendous effects on high schoolers that are contemplating suicide. The creators went through what many high schoolers are going through, not only homosexuals, and know the best advice to give them.

People can handle bullying, even extremely intense bullying, if they believe it is only temporary. When you think it will go on forever is when the depression, along with possible suicide, sets in.

I suspect there is something of "getting even" attitude in suicides...

"You'll miss me when I'm gone"
"You'll be sorry you treated me that way"

which, of course, is completely useless because the "you's" will rationalize their own behaviors.

[YOUTUBE]wvgap8p0tkM[/YOUTUBE]

Datalyss;690701 wrote:

I know this is probably gonna spark a heavy debate...or maybe not, but I'd like to know your thoughts on kids committing suicide as a result of being bullied.

I'm for it.



Is this what we are supposed to be debating?

It's nature's way of weeding out the weak, thinning the herd, feeding the predators & scavengers, nourishing the soil, and conserving oxygen.

Flint;690778 wrote:

I'm for it.



Is this what we are supposed to be debating?

You be Pro, I'll be Con.

This has always been a sensitive issue for me. I was tormented constantly for 4 years in middle school for no apparent reason. Nothing I did was right. No matter what, they always found something to hassle me about. There were plenty of times I thought about it. It may sound silly since it was so long ago, but it still affects me to this day. I hate sitting with my back to people. I can't stand being in crowds. More often than not, the evil voice wins the mental battle in my head and brings me down into a dark hole.

A lot of times I wonder if I would be the same if they would have just left me alone or if the confidence I had before them would have reigned supreme instead of the doubt that I constantly battle.

Unless you've been tormented, you really can't understand how trapped and alone you feel even if you do have friends. You can't tell your parents because being the protectors that they naturally are, they may go to the school and complain. If that gets around, it will get exponentially worse.

It's even worse if the thing they are being bullied about is being gay, and there's a sizeable portion of society who says you're an evil sinner, or would if you told them. Perhaps even the people you would otherwise go to for support, like parents or school faculty.

My brother and I were bullied in middle school. I don't recall things ever getting physical...it was more verbal bullying. We and our friends had the spiked hair thing going and one kid in particular would always call us "Kajagoogoo (80's bad that did Too Shy Shy, etc... http://www.kajagoogoo.com/) and make other snide remarks.

I remember going to the guidance counselor which probably made it worse. Eventually things calmed down. After graduating high school, we were at the local pool and we ran into the main kid who used to bully us. I swear he had not grown an inch but we both did. He came over and said something like "Hey ******s (our last name), what's up"? We both told him to fuck off before we kicked his ass. That felt good.

Bullying in today's age is different than back then (mid to late 80's). Kids today don't just bully, they attempt to either beat the crap out of you or mentally destroy you. Some kids can handle that and fight back while others can't. Parents (I do not have kids) need to be aware of changes in their kids and hope the kids open up to them. Sometimes, telling the parent who will then talk to the other kids' parents or the school just makes things harder on the bullied kid. So, the bullied kid may not say anything and just let things build until he/she does something irrational either to themselves or to the bullier(s). Sometimes that irrational thing, sadly, is suicide. They don't view suicide as a permanent solution to a temporary problem. They just want it to stop and that is the way they find.

If that happens and there is proof that the bullying led the kid to kill himself/herself, the bullier should be held legally accountable. You can't claim first degree murder, but they should be charged with something along the lines of involuntary manslaughter. My brother and I (identical twins by the way) were able to get through it because we stuck together. I imagine that a lot of bullied kids don't have that kind of support.

I was bullied in elementary school. They had limited power, because I was an introvert, and didn't care what they thought about me, and when it got physical I fought back. There was one unpleasant point, where my best friend realized I was unpopular, and tried his hand at a little light public bullying to separate himself from me.

Datalyss;690701 wrote:

but I'd like to know your thoughts on kids committing suicide as a result of being bullied.

The problem will always be a lack of hard facts. For example, a recent discuss by some of the world's best experts in the brain (on Charlie Rose) noted something contrary to popular belief. Depression does not cause suicide. If true, then any discussion will have serious problems. Until you can say why people commit suicide, then no useful discussion can result. Only popular myths get promoted.

She was bullied. Therefore she committed suicide? Why? Where are the hard facts that associate what mental state with suicide.

We know bullying can only exist when management - teachers, administrators, guidance counselors - are not doing their job. But what is the hard fact that connects that overt mismanagement with suicide? To answer that, one must first define why a person would commit suicide. That means trashing widely believed hearsay myths and wild speculation.

Why does depression not lead to suicide? I cannot say. He did not provide the details.

Flint;690778 wrote:

I'm for it.

INAPPROPRIATE!

xoxoxoBruce;690781 wrote:

It's nature's way of weeding out the weak, thinning the herd, feeding the predators & scavengers, nourishing the soil, and conserving oxygen.

This is not the way I intended this thread to go.

tw;690824 wrote:

We know bullying can only exist when management - teachers, administrators, guidance counselors - are not doing their job.

Well, they can't do their jobs if the kids don't tell them what's happening. And these days, the bullies can come right into the homes of the people they are bullying, through the internet. There is now no reprieve, no safe zone. It is bullying 24/7. I can't even begin to imagine that. When I was bullied in school, I had a safe zone in my house. No matter how bad the bullying was, I was secure in the knowledge that while at home I didn't have to deal with them, or their BS. Kids today don't have that luxury anymore.

tw;690824 wrote:

We know bullying can only exist when management - teachers, administrators, guidance counselors - are not doing their job.

I think you've grossly underestimated the capacity of kids to be cruel to each other in ways that fly completely under the radar.

Bullying exists everywhere, in any social grouping of sufficient size, regardless of the quality of the "management".

Flint;690778 wrote:

I'm for it.

You're not alone.

Kansas City Star wrote:

[LEFT][COLOR=#000000][school board member] McCance's alleged posting was in response to a Facebook campaign that asked supporters to wear purple last Wednesday to show solidarity after several gay and lesbian youths killed themselves, reportedly because of bullying.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#000000]"Seriously they want me to wear purple because five queers killed themselves," McCance allegedly wrote. "The only way im wearin it for them is if they all commit suicide. I cant believe the people of this world have gotten this stupid. We are honoring the fact that they sinned and killed thereselves because of their sin."[/COLOR][/LEFT]

Datalyss;690834 wrote:

This is not the way I intended this thread to go.

Funny how that works.

Well, they can't do their jobs if the kids don't tell them what's happening. And these days, the bullies can come right into the homes of the people they are bullying, through the internet. There is now no reprieve, no safe zone. It is bullying 24/7. I can't even begin to imagine that. When I was bullied in school, I had a safe zone in my house. No matter how bad the bullying was, I was secure in the knowledge that while at home I didn't have to deal with them, or their BS. Kids today don't have that luxury anymore.

Yes they do, it's called a power button. It gives them the power to make it stop.

Datalyss;690834 wrote:

Well, they can't do their jobs if the kids don't tell them what's happening. And these days, the bullies can come right into the homes of the people they are bullying, through the internet. There is now no reprieve, no safe zone. It is bullying 24/7.

You are assuming reactive management - also called 'failure is acceptable'. Management's job is to be pro-active. If administrators, et al do not address a problem before hand, then the problem escalates. For example, where was the program that said what kids could do and who they could go to if bullying occurred? And where was the program that identifies bullying?

We teach kids to wash their hands and to use toilet paper before they get sick and die. Same proactive principles apply to bullying. As I have said so many hundreds of times, management's job is about attitude and knowledge. It is not about stopping failures after damage has been done. If failures happen, blame starts with management that failed to do their job. Teach the necessary concepts and provide the necessary channels.

Well, we taught about drunk driving and death. And so death rates went down. Apparently there is some connection between bullying and death. That means the solution starts with where mistakes started - top management. A solution always starts with attitude and knowledge. Management's job is to provide both. Only then does peer pressure work. No attitude and knowledge; then no peer pressure to further eliminate the problem.

xoxoxoBruce;690865 wrote:

Yes they do, it's called a power button. It gives them the power to make it stop.

tw;690886 wrote:

You are assuming reactive management - also called 'failure is acceptable'. Management's job is to be pro-active. If administrators, et al do not address a problem before hand, then the problem escalates. For example, where was the program that said what kids could do and who they could go to if bullying occurred? And where was the program that identifies bullying?

We teach kids to wash their hands and to use toilet paper before they get sick and die. Same proactive principles apply to bullying. As I have said so many hundreds of times, management's job is about attitude and knowledge. It is not about stopping failures after damage has been done. If failures happen, blame starts with management that failed to do their job. Teach the necessary concepts and provide the necessary channels.

Well, we taught about drunk driving and death. And so death rates went down. Apparently there is some connection between bullying and death. That means the solution starts with where mistakes started - top management. A solution always starts with attitude and knowledge. Management's job is to provide both. Only then does peer pressure work. No attitude and knowledge; then no peer pressure to further eliminate the problem.

You both make good points, but Bruce, I think your solution to cyber-bullying is a bit unrealistic since some kids feel the need to keep defending themselves via email, IM, texting, etc.

This thread was doomed when you started it with no input and expected it to magically develop some kind of content.

Datalyss;690892 wrote:

You both make good points, but Bruce, I think your solution to cyber-bullying is a bit unrealistic since some kids feel the need to keep defending themselves via email, IM, texting, etc.

Then they lose. Part of tw's plan should be to clue them in to that.

Suicide comes from many things. Bullying is only one of them.

I was bullied in middle and high school. Only in mine, understand. I had no problem making friends and even dating in, say, Haverford.

But my (two) suicide episodes were not related to that at all. Nor to depression, according to the therapist who talked me down and the psychiatrist who diagnosed the underlying problem, although the therapist had a pretty good idea from talking to me. It just wasn't her specialty and she wanted to be certain.

I dealt with my bullies with horribly mean practical jokes.

Brian

But Brian, she took your fucking dog, man, she took your fucking dog. That would make me homicidal. ;)

That is NOT what I am referring to.

BrianR;691198 wrote:

That is NOT what I am referring to.

Your post comes closest to answering my earlier questions. What causes suicide? And one step farther. What are relevant symptoms that she would diagnose from? Unfortunately, relevant details applicable to this discussion are not provided.

I did not provide the necessary details because I do not feel comfortable discussing this in public. It is still a painful subject for me and although eventually I will share the basics, the details shall remain private.

I can give generalities though. There was an overwhelming feeling of hopelessness and a "helpless in the tide" sensation where my life was spinning out of control and everything I had worked for was crashing down. One thought randomly led to another and finally suicide was the only way to stop the emotional pain. Or so I thought. Luckily I came to enough of my shattered senses to call for help.

Once a diagnosis was reached, and I had been educated enough to deal with things on my own, I rebuilt my life to what it is now. The initial problem is still there but I am in therapy and am working it out. Medication will be started very soon now. There is the possibility of surgery years from now if the meds do not alleviate the issue sufficiently. Time will tell.

As for the reasons for suicide, they are varied and all in the mind of the victim. There are few commonalities and most do not have a medical basis, unlike MY issue. No one really knows what a self-destructive person is thinking, even that person. Many attempted suicides are a disguised cry for help. Successful suicides are not.

We can never quite understand the underlying problems because the few who survive a serious attempt tend to lie about their reasoning or perhaps they don't understand it either. The bullied teens in the original topic may have had other problems that never came to light. Or perhaps they were covered up after the fact. Yes, that happens if the reasons embarrass the survivors. As an example, if the child of a prominent politician or other public figure kills themselves because they are homosexual, that fact may never see the light of day and the reports simply state the bland, unsupported facts of the death and not the underlying cause.

All may not be what it appears.

Brian

BrianR;691238 wrote:

I can give generalities though. There was an overwhelming feeling of hopelessness and a "helpless in the tide" sensation where my life was spinning out of control and everything I had worked for was crashing down. One thought randomly led to another and finally suicide was the only way to stop the emotional pain. Or so I thought. Luckily I came to enough of my shattered senses to call for help.

So many questions. For example, how does this vary from one suffering from depression? What does a therapist see that can tell the difference? Fpr example, can the Beck depression scale identify that difference?

Is it at all possible for the victim (once properly informed) to appreciate or recognize these differences from inside himself? Or are there tests (some kind of benchmark) a victim can perform to learn that they need to seek help?
(Where is wolf?)

tw;691255 wrote:

So many questions. For example, how does this vary from one suffering from depression? What does a therapist see that can tell the difference? Fpr example, can the Beck depression scale identify that difference?

Is it at all possible for the victim (once properly informed) to appreciate or recognize these differences from inside himself? Or are there tests (some kind of benchmark) a victim can perform to learn that they need to seek help?
(Where is wolf?)

I cannot answer these questions. I am not depressed, not a trained therapist and never heard of the Beck scale. I have no idea if there is a benchmark or some other self-test. All I have is MY experience, which is limited to one episode and only involving me.

thread killed

Not quite.

The problem with issues like depression and suicide is that while they can be quantified, doing so does not help in understanding, or in predicting individual human behavior.

Suicide is not exclusive to depression, and not all depressed people become suicidal to the point of developing and executing a plan.

Right now I need some sleep and I'll get back to this thread, and maybe even say something coherent.

Fighting Bullying With Babies

The typical institutional response to bullying is to get tough. In the Tyler Clementi case, prosecutors are considering bringing hate-crime charges. But programs like the one I want to discuss today show the potential of augmenting our innate impulses to care for one another instead of just falling back on punishment as a deterrent. And what’s the secret formula? A baby.

We know that humans are hardwired to be aggressive and selfish. But a growing body of research is demonstrating that there is also a biological basis for human compassion. Brain scans reveal that when we contemplate violence done to others we activate the same regions in our brains that fire up when mothers gaze at their children, suggesting that caring for strangers may be instinctual. When we help others, areas of the brain associated with pleasure also light up. Research by Felix Warneken and Michael Tomasello indicates that toddlers as young as 18 months behave altruistically. (If you want to feel good, watch one of their 15-second video clips here.)

Sure, harvest boatloads of third world babies, then when shit happens on the playground, the principal can call the choppers to airdrop babies on the trouble spots.

With parachutes. Remember the 'chutes, Bruce.

I swear I thought they could fly.

xoxoxoBruce;695013 wrote:

I swear I thought they could fly.

If babies are depressed, will they commit suicide?

Nope, the babies aren't capable of suicide, and the rioters kick into nurturing mode even more.