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Queen of the Ryche 08-06-2009 11:02 AM

Well it sure seems you have a ton of virtual friends backing you up right here. We have all seen the progress - how can we possibly dismiss it when we've all seen the proof? I say send every doubter a link to this thread, and if they still don't believe, tell them to Eat A Big Bowl of D*cks.

Clodfobble 08-06-2009 11:13 AM


Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
Send her a link to this thread. It's all documented her, including people questioning your views and proof of your progress.

I already sent links to the videos in my email to her. You've got to understand, she's a child psychiatrist, she's not going to be convinced by any amount of evidence on this topic. You guys are way, way more open-minded than the rest of the population, I assure you. And don't kid yourself, the only difference between my friend and, say, UT or Happy Monkey, is that those guys are willing to politely make an allowance that maybe dietary stuff has had some impact specifically on my one child, they just maintain it in no way translates to a larger causation fingering vaccines. But the people who have done the research, on both sides of the debate, know that halfway-house theory can't stand on its own. If the diet works, vaccines play a role. They know it, we know it. Think about it: why else would anyone fund studies to prove that autistic children don't have a higher incidence of digestive problems? That's really the most important avenue they can think to explore? Unless of course the dietary link is more important than it appears to the average person--and it is. That's why they steadfastly cannot discuss or accept biomedical treatments in any way, shape or form. It doesn't matter how many videos I have of my son, or whether we even attain the holy grail of getting his neurologist to admit in the next year or so that he no longer qualifies for a diagnosis of autism--which he will only do couched in terms of, "well he must never have had autism to begin with," you mark my words--they will not believe. Because if you believe even one iota of the diet, if you believe that my son has made even one single step forward due to anything other than behavioral therapies, then you've stepped into the vaccination mud.

You may note that TheMercenary, the only medical doctor on this board that I'm aware of, is supportive of my general situation, but has not chimed in with regard to my son's alleged improvement. And based on his posts in the Vaccination & Epidemic thread, I'd say he's actually one of the more open-minded doctors I've met. He at least takes the line of "nothing's proven, we need more research," rather than "we have 16 studies on it and that's all we'll ever need." But let's ask him: have biomedical treatments improved my son's condition, or not? He will not give you a straight answer. None of them will, because they know exactly where that line of thought leads.

Queen of the Ryche 08-06-2009 11:37 AM

I don't understand why doctor's are so anti-biomedical treatment? Is it because then their cohorts won't get paid for therapy and prescriptions?

And I understand causation is VERY important to discover, but in the meantime, THE BIOMED ROUTE IS WORKING FOR GID. LOOK PEOPLE! WHO GIVES A RAT'S ARSE WHAT CAUSED IT AT THIS POINT - IT'S WORKING.

/rant off.

Clodfobble 08-06-2009 11:44 AM


Originally Posted by Queen of the Ryche
I don't understand why doctor's are so anti-biomedical treatment?

Because it invariably leads to the conclusion that vaccines are playing a role in triggering/worsening autism. If biomedical treatments gain wider acceptance, vaccination rates will plummet. And while they may or may not scramble to find ways to make the vaccines safer, it will be decades before vaccination rates go up again, and in the meantime children will be dying of measles and pertussis again. I've even talked to some doctors who do genuinely believe that vaccines do cause autism--but they still figure 1 in 100 kids being autistic is better than 1 in 1000 babies dying of measles.

Queen of the Ryche 08-06-2009 11:52 AM

Holy Hell. It's a no-win situation then. Friggin politics to sell more vaccines. Amazing. My sympathies, and keep fighting the good fight. You're a much stronger woman than I.

BTW, I've recently been in touch with an organizaiton called Best Buddies, that sets up one on one friends for those with special needs, learning disabilites, etc. including autistics. I'm working on getting a program going here in Colorado - I'll keep you posted.

Also the friend whose autistic son started piano lessons: the teacher said he has perfect pitch. When she plays he hums along. He's now learning to play chopsticks on his own.

jinx 08-06-2009 12:01 PM


Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 586325)
but they still figure 1 in 100 kids being autistic is better than 1 in 1000 babies dying of measles.

I know you're just making a point, not about the actual numbers.... but just for the record we were down to 0.2 per 100,000 just prior to the measles vaccination introduction.

Clodfobble 08-06-2009 12:04 PM

Ah well, there you have it. 1 in 100 kids being autistic is apparently better than 1 in 500,000 kids dying of measles. That also assumes that the treatment of measles will have improved in no way since 1968.

Undertoad 08-06-2009 12:12 PM

I think I can participate in this thread in the social matter --

Loss of friends over changes in one's belief system? Let me tell you my story. For many years, I was a hardcore Libertarian and worked inside the L party to try to develop it and to angle politically. My then-wife was 100% with me on that, and so most of our friends were fellow L party travelers and their associates who enjoyed the ride.

After a decade of believing and working and developing friendships, I began to realize that although it had many good points, the hard core libertarianism also had deep flaws as a school of thought. Once I started to be at odds with some of the oft-repeated mantras, it all sort of broke away and over a period of two years I found myself no longer in the group-think.

Then, as a result, I lost most of my friends over a period of that two years. And it was also probably the first crack leading to my divorce -- although I consider the divorce the best thing to happen, so I'm not sure that matters so much.

One of my current best friends (and being all anti-social, I have like six friends, and two I'd regard as "best") is one of the hardest-core libertarians in the country. But just like I learned about marriage, real friendship overrides philosophy somehow. The disagreements become part of why we're friends.

Do I have a conclusion here... no I guess not... but I should say, Clod and this goes for you jinx too, although I am not directly in your belief system, I want to remain efriends, because to me you are beautiful people and when it comes to beliefs, we all struggle to understand, the struggle is the beautiful part. And intellectual honesty requires me to admit I may be wrong, as well so what does it matter?

Clodfobble 08-06-2009 12:23 PM

I wish all my friends saw it that way, Toad. :) It would also help if the disagreements I have with them were more philosophical and less concrete. If you watched some libertarians physically hurt your child, and then deny it ever happened, it would take on a whole new light. I can still be friends with people who continue to raise their own children as libertarians, but I'm still taking my kid to the hospital, even if it's run by fascists.

jinx 08-06-2009 12:50 PM


Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 586339)
Do I have a conclusion here... no I guess not... but I should say, Clod and this goes for you jinx too, although I am not directly in your belief system, I want to remain efriends, because to me you are beautiful people and when it comes to beliefs, we all struggle to understand, the struggle is the beautiful part. And intellectual honesty requires me to admit I may be wrong, as well so what does it matter?

The topic is fascinating to me... and infuriating... I get obsessed with it. I've been reading about it for 10 years and have no real answers.
I'm ok with disagreeing for the most part UT. Fuck, if I'm wrong, and vaccines are harmless and the greatest medical advancement ever - well that's good news isn't it? I could make a Dr. appointment and get my kids all shot up and move on, knowing they are the picture of health.

If I'm right though, well that thought is pretty terrifying.

Flint 08-06-2009 12:56 PM

:::kicks Undertoad in his stupid balls:::

Clodfobble 08-06-2009 10:25 PM

Allergy test results came in the mail today, by the way.


Originally Posted by Clodfobble
Incidentally, Minifob's allergy blood tests will be back in soon. I'll let you know if they confirm my personal finding that he has a correlated behavioral reaction to coconut, peaches, oranges, cashews, peanuts, egg, and tomatoes. (And just for the record, I'm predicting Minifobette's blood tests, when she gets them in a few months, will show a reaction to pears, peaches, oranges, cherries, mango, kiwi, and pineapple.)

Coconut: yes
Peaches: no
Oranges: yes
Cashews: yes
Peanuts: double yes (get to that in a minute)
Egg: double yes
Tomatoes: yes

I am quite frankly stunned that peaches came up negative. I am now certain that they would mark positively on an IgE panel, however. Here's the thing--there are IgG allergies (officially known as "sensitivities") and IgE allergies ("true allergies.") The two big differences are 1.) IgG causes digestive distress, while IgE is the typical itchy eyes/rash/wheezing/sneezing response, and 2.) IgG can fluctuate over time, and a damaged digestive system is going to react poorly to more things than a healthy one, so there is a chance to heal, while IgE is usually a lifelong immune dysfunction. Both can cause behavioral symptoms.

Because the assumption behind all of this is that we're more concerned with digestive problems, they do a comprehensive IgG panel for 118 different foods, and an IgE panel for the most common allergens, plus any you choose to add. (You can add as many as you want, but it's $7 per food, so it's best to be moderate.) Minifob's tests came back with both an IgG and an IgE reaction to eggs and peanuts, but peaches weren't on the IgE panel, only the IgG.

Anyway, what is really useful about all this is not confirming what I already knew, but alerting me to things I didn't know. The number one highest-ranked allergen, almost off the scale? Garlic. Go figure. I'll have to check the seasonings on a few of his chips, but as far as I know he's not eating any garlic anyway. Other very high results (everything's on a severity scale, the above suspected ones were also all in the highest range):

Things he won't eat, or has never had: Cantaloupe, Honeydew, Watermelon, Carrot, Green Peas, Lentils, Safflower, Cottonseed, Flaxseed, Walnuts, Hazelnuts, Brazil nuts, White Beans

Gluten, Oats, Rye, Wheat: no shocker there

Sesame: there are small amounts in one type of GF pretzel he eats
Mustard: sometimes has a small amount on hamburgers

Pinto beans: this one's the kicker. He eats pinto beans (in the form of refried beans) every single freaking day, sometimes twice a day. I'd have no idea if it were making him worse than he could be without it, because he's never without it. I'm pretty sure I've seen refried black beans at our grocery store though, so I'll switch him out and see what happens.

There's a handful of others in the lower ranges, but I'm not going to worry about those for now. We're totally safe with corn, chickpeas, most fruits and vegetables, and all meats, so I'm happy about that.

xoxoxoBruce 08-06-2009 11:30 PM

The more you know, the better equipped to do what's best, and less likely to be blindsided. You go, girl.:thumb:

ZenGum 08-07-2009 12:22 AM

I am amazed by both the irrationailty and dogmatism described in Clod's post #437 (not Clod's, the position she is describing).

Maybe Autism is caused by genes, maybe vaccination, maybe both, neither, mixtures, other etc.

Maybe is treatable by diet, maybe behavioural therapy, maybe both, neither, mixtures, other etc.

As far as I can see, there is NO necessary connection between treating it with diet and believing it was caused by vaccination. These beliefs may often be found together, but they are conceptually independent.

It amazes me that anyone, especially a helath professional, could be so dogmatic. Medicine is an empirical science. Try things, see if they work.

There is widespread evidence - largely anecdotal, but lots of it - that diet helps. That is perfectly compatible with autism being genetically caused. What is so hard about that?

OnyxCougar 08-07-2009 11:56 AM

Clod, regarding the allergy tests, have all of you in your family gotten this testing? I am interested whether or not perhaps these sensitivities and allergies are present in sibling/parents. And I wonder how many of us have these s/a on a lower scale, but we just never find out?

I'm sorry you lost your acquaintence. I don't want to see you isolating yourself from others in the "real world" (as opposed to us, your e-friends) because that sense of disconnection will wear you down faster than if you had a better support group. Not that we're not your support group. *sigh* You know what I mean.

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