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Old 10-21-2003, 02:19 PM   #16
Whit
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      Actually, I've been to more than one funeral for people that have commited sucicide. In my teens I helped a large number of my peers through various depressions. Hell, the one guy in my school that did kill himself I knew was sucidal from having one class with him. I just figured he had friends and I wasn't one of them. They'd help, oops guess I was wrong.
      As far as the kid goes. She's going to have issues for the rest of her life because of his actions. The man didn't give a fuck about that. What? He couldn't afford therapy? No, he lacked the strength and courage to get help. So, he took the easy way out. The thought that they have a kid is enough to make a lot of people pull the strength together to make something happen, not the case with him.
      I've known lots of people that kept going because of their responsibilties to others, when they had no other reason. Responsibility can work to prevent sucide. However, if you can kill yourself when you've got a kid you either don't realize the effects the sucide will have on the kid, (which means you don't recognize your responsibility) or you don't care. (which means you don't accept your responsibility)
      Either way, he's dead and she's going to have some serious problems. All because he cashed out instead of caring about her.
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:40 PM   #17
Undertoad
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My dad died when I was 3, and I done ok.

(I know I'm an ass to say that, because there's no way to come back to it, and I'm just being contrarian anyway)
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:41 PM   #18
dave
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Quote:
Originally posted by Whit
I've known lots of people that kept going because of their responsibilties to others, when they had no other reason. Responsibility can work to prevent sucide. However, if you can kill yourself when you've got a kid you either don't realize the effects the sucide will have on the kid, (which means you don't recognize your responsibility) or you don't care. (which means you don't accept your responsibility)
I don't think these are the only two explanations. They certainly <b>can</b> be an accurate description, but they doesn't mean that they are in all cases. Depression affects people in different ways, and it has differing levels of severity. For Cobain specifically, there's not really much I can argue. I don't agree that he deserved to die, but he certainly acted irresponsibly. He wouldn't win Dad of the Year. That's not what I'm debating, so we can leave him out of it. You mentioned before that "Any dickhead that's so selfish that they think they have the right to kill themselves after they are responsible for a kid needs to die." I think this is grossly off base. First of all, I think we all have the right to end our lives. I don't necessarily think it's a good one, but who are you or I to tell someone what they can and cannot do with themselves?

Secondly, it's not necessarily selfish. This is a very serious oversimplification of the reasons behind suicide. It's not always "Life sucks and I'm tired of it, so I'm going to make the pain go away." Many times, people feel that they are doing others a favor by removing a burden. They feel that they are such fuckups that the world, and more specifically their loved ones, would be better off without them. Now, generally speaking, that's not a very reasoned line of thought, but people actually believe it. Like I said, depression affects people in various ways, sometimes including an ability to think rationally.

Third, saying someone needs to die because they "think" something is kinda Big Brother-ish, don't you think? Regardless of whether or not you agree with an opinion, no one needs to die for having it.

No offense Whit, 'cause I generally like you, but this is obviously a very emotionally charged subject for you. If you were looking at it rationally, surely you'd agree that no one "needs to die" for thinking something. You've seen a lot of pain caused by suicide and you (rightly) feel that it's wrong. Well, attitudes like yours aren't saving lives. The singled out comment is ridiculous and incorrect, and I've demonstrated as such. Use your brain instead of your heart.

Last edited by dave; 10-21-2003 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:53 PM   #19
Whit
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&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Heh, actually I posted that line to get a rise. I don't know if you've noticed but the Cellars been kinda quiet today. I intentionally overstated to get a response.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I actually, agree with most of what you say, and yeah it is "big-brotherish". We do have the right to end our lives, IMO, I just lose all respect for anyone that won't take their kids into account. That's actually as far as my feelings go.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Anyway, I'm an asshole, which you should appreciate, but I've got to go now. Gotta pick my kids up from school. Thanks for playing.
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Old 10-21-2003, 04:11 PM   #20
xoxoxoBruce
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There are instances when the kid, despite the resulting head trip, is better off without the parent.

Aside- Better off without grunge too.:p
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Old 10-21-2003, 04:50 PM   #21
bmgb
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I think the kid might be better off without Courtney Love. And Courtney killed Kurt, so the whole argument is moot anyway.

(Actually, Hole's "Live Through This" is another big favorite of mine from the '90s. I don't know about Love, though...)
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Old 10-21-2003, 07:45 PM   #22
elSicomoro
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Okay, that's better UT.

Blur should definitely be in there. Better than any other Britpop band of the 90s, IMO. 13 has to be one of the greatest records ever. Their new disc is good too.

Lessee...who else should be on my list?

--Underworld
--David Byrne
--Aphex Twin
--Chemical Brothers
--Massive Attack
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Old 10-21-2003, 11:34 PM   #23
mischka
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'90's bands, huh?
i've been racking my brain and i've realized that the vast majority of music that i listen to now was created before i was born...how did that happen? but i still could think of some good ones.
-the cranberries
-smashing pumpkins, of course
-bjork (if she counts as '90s)
-sleater-kinney
-hole (not to ignite the whole courtney love thing)
-the roots
there were also a lot of quality-debatable but certainly guilty pleasure rap, hip-hop, and R&B acts, like TLC, Lil'Kim, Salt & Pepa, Tupac, and OutKast.
for most of the 90s i seem to remember lots of one-hit wonderish pop rock bands, you know, the kind of bands that made theme songs for tv shows and such. and then there were the gin blossoms who always seemed like a one hit wonder band but really weren't, they just had a few songs that were well-known but never really "hits"...

--m

p.s. so, u2 has been around since what, 1978? they're still famous and had a lot of stuff out in the '90s, but most of their good stuff was in the '80s, so do they qualify as an '80s band, '90s band, or one of those bands that defies decade?
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Old 10-22-2003, 04:05 AM   #24
bmgb
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I would have to second Sleater-Kinney.

Also, PJ Harvey.
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Old 10-22-2003, 07:18 AM   #25
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bmgb, yer solidly in the college bands crowd... not that there's anything wrong with that, I admire it.

The Cranberries most definitely, preceded by the Sundays, which in turn reminds me of the whole Manchester scene which grunge extinguished. I was very heavily into that, and it did emerge about 89-90, to answer the hole left by the end of the Smiths.

So: Sundays, Charlatans, Lush, Stone Roses, Happy Mondays, Inspiral Carpets, Verve, Trash Can Sinatras. This is the movement that should have lasted IMO.
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Old 10-22-2003, 01:42 PM   #26
elSicomoro
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As far as what decade a band qualifies itself to, I'd say it's flexible. For example, several of my favorites on here would appear on multiple decades best-of lists (Johnny Cash, Depeche Mode, David Bowie).
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Old 10-22-2003, 02:34 PM   #27
bmgb
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Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad
bmgb, yer solidly in the college bands crowd... not that there's anything wrong with that, I admire it.

So: Sundays, Charlatans, Lush, Stone Roses, Happy Mondays, Inspiral Carpets, Verve, Trash Can Sinatras. This is the movement that should have lasted IMO.
I love Lush! I don't think the critics of the time really recognized how good they were. (Maybe there will be a revival someday.)

Well, when I saw Lush play at the Lollapalooza, GRUNGE was the thing. I was surprised Lush ROCKED OUT big time. This may have been the same Lollapalooza where Soundgarden played too (most of it is a blur to me now...) And, you know what? Soundgarden SUCKED (live). It was sort of wanna-be macho rock posturing, with no charisma whatsoever. I still think their recorded work was pretty good, but I wouldn't have paid to see them live again.

(Now, Henry Rollins- there was some macho rock posturing I could get into. Oddly, I loved him live, but could never get into his CDs.)
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