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Old 07-26-2004, 04:45 PM   #61
DanaC
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And that Jag is ultimately the point. Look at any of the groups who cry oppression or discrimination and at it's core you will find an economic disparity
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Old 07-26-2004, 04:48 PM   #62
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But does that justify other forms of discrimination to 'balance it out'?
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Old 07-26-2004, 04:50 PM   #63
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Only as long as a better solution can't be implemented.
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Old 07-26-2004, 04:54 PM   #64
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So an eye for an eye HM? I thought two wrongs don't make a right, or does that only apply in the playground?
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Old 07-26-2004, 04:55 PM   #65
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"hey you discriminated against us last recess, it's our turn to discriminate against you!!! i'm going to tell the teacher!!!"

yeah - seems reasonable enough
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Old 07-26-2004, 05:18 PM   #66
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What's the better solution? Pretend there's no problem?
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Old 07-26-2004, 05:33 PM   #67
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if you walked out to your back yard and saw your son beating your daughter with a baseball bat, not hard enough to cause real damage, but enough to inflict pain, what would you do?

A) would you say "son that was really wrong" then hand your daughter the bat and say "i'm sorry that this wrong behavior was directed at you. please take this bat as compensation and beat your brother until you think that the two of you have received equal beatings."?

B) would you acknowledge that it was unacceptable behavior and then try to draw the 2 siblings into a more acceptable relationship; one where they both understand that wronging the other is unacceptable, no matter who the aggressor is?

C) would you walk out and say "good swinging son, now don't drop your shoulder."

i think you would choose b. if not, what is the number to CPS in your area? wrong behavior is not an acceptable repayment for previous wrong behavior.
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Old 07-26-2004, 05:44 PM   #68
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I tried constructing a response based on your analogy, but it just isn't relevant. It's more like the son is digging the daughter into a hole, and she's trying to dig her way out. Even if you stop the son from digging (which hasn't completely happened yet), she still has a ways to go before she gets to the surface.
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Old 07-26-2004, 06:33 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubleshooter
rac·ism Audio pronunciation of "racist" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.*

*Emphasis added

They are racist.

Now, if you'd like to come up with a better word I'd be happy to apply it, but as it stands, any use of the word in referrence to an organization that doesn't include other races is wrong.

The terms must be clear. See the The Rules of The Game.

Oh lordy. I read those rules (or at least part of them). *shakes head*

At any rate, so what's next? You've proudly condemned these orgs. What's the next step?
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Old 07-26-2004, 06:48 PM   #70
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the next step is for everyone to quit looking for someone to blame for diffifulties in their lives, even when there is valid fault reason to do so, and get on with life. do the best that we can, with what we have, try to improve yourself and help the person to the right and left of you, applaud those you see helping others, ignore those who hinder, help old ladies across the street, smile and little kids(even the dirty ones), be kind to everyone (even those that make your skin crawl), love every day of life for all it is worth, hug and kiss (when appropriate) your family every chance you get, and raise your kids to understand that the ignorant people in the world cannot hold them back unless they succomb to victimhood.

lather, rinse, repeat.

no one can make me fail, except for me.
that is what we should do.
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Old 07-26-2004, 07:29 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubleshooter
The terms must be clear. See the The Rules of The Game.

My work here is done.

-sm
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Old 07-26-2004, 07:47 PM   #72
ladysycamore
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And so is mine.
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Old 07-26-2004, 07:49 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladysycamore
Oh lordy. I read those rules (or at least part of them). *shakes head*

At any rate, so what's next? You've proudly condemned these orgs. What's the next step?
Clearly you've misread my posts. Nowhere did I say they were bad. I said they were racist. I don't have a problem with a club having valid discriminatory criteria.

What I do have a problem with is an organization using its vast resources to sell its constituency on the fact that all of their problems can be blamed on someone else instead of spending those resources to improve the clearly pointed out problems that they actually have.
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Old 07-26-2004, 07:51 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothmoniker
My work here is done.

-sm
Smartass...

My philosophy instructor beat you to the punch. Sorry. Yours was just a convenient link.
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Old 07-27-2004, 03:23 AM   #75
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The only way to end racism is to engage in a process to end racism. The process to end racism cannot begin until racism is recognised and confronted. If racism exists in the present day then it must be confronted in the present and framed in contemporary terms.

If you or your community experience racism then you have two possible responses. You can either ignore it or attempt in some way to confront or deal with it. If you are a journalist that may come inthe form of a written expose .....if you are a university professor it may come in the form of your teaching style and content. If you are a stay at home mother of three it may underpin how you raise your children. If you are a young man without employment but a whole lot of testosterone to add a bitter twist to your anger it may come in the form of a violent response. If you are the kind of person who responds well to a challeneg you may make some attempt to progress despite it.....whether or not the doors slam shut in your face is not your decision to make. If you are the kind of person who is easily disenchanted or derailed you may slump into a bleak mood from which you never fully emerge. If your experience of the world is of extreme racism you may form an extreme response. If your experience of the world is of a slight residual racism you may form a sense of unfairness to be challenged but not to rail against.

Racism takes many forms and manifests in many walks of life. Some areas of the world and some areas of each country are more extreme than others. If your life experience introduces you primarily to the milder forms of racism then you may well percieve there to be less of a problem than there is....arguably then if your life experience introduces you primarily to the most damaging and base forms of racism and discrimination then perhaps you percieve more of a problem than exists in the world at large.

Just looking at the educational opportunities and employment opportunities for black and white in specific areas and looking at the wages commanded by each block overall....it seems to me ( and indeed to many) that there is inequity between the two. That is not to say if you are white you get it handed to you on a plate and if you are black you are slapped if you reach for the plate....It just seems from the evidence that if you are white you are more likely to have had better opportunities and advantages than if you are black ( or indeed darker skinned, this seems to run across many ethnicities although the black experience seems to sit at the bottom in most scales)

By extension thne if you are black you are less likely to have had the educational opportunities of your white counterpart. You are statistically more likely to have been raised below the poverty line and statistically less likely to get a job above minimum wage levels. You are also statisticaly more likely to have been arrested and more likely to serve time in prison ....seems to me that last part is fairly intrinsically linked to the rest.

If you are part of a group, even if you yourself are one of the people who responds to racism in the system as a challenge and progresses, through the hardest work and most dedicated commitment. Even if you are raised in a family that already broke through the glass ceiling and found a way into the upper echelons of society. If the group to which you belong has been systematically abused in the past and is still at many levels still facing abuse then I would imagine it could be a difficult thing to do, to disassociate from that groups' distress. For instance...I was raised in a family that held very little in the way of patriarchal sexist views or agendas. My brother and I did the same household chores ( unlike some of my friends at school, whose brothers didnt have to help with housework because it was girls work ) I played with all kinds of toys, soldiers included. I found outside a world which was a mix of old sexist institutions and attitudes and new progressive liberal attitudes and institutions. I can blame none of my failures on an unfair patriarchy, they are my own entire. I have not experienced extreme prejudice but I have experienced a low level sexism ( occassionally rising to the outrageous but theyre mainly dying off now ) just enough to keep the kettle boiling..... I am not angry, I have little reason for it and there are other fights more worth my while right now ( like the fight against fascism in britain) but .....there are still many glass ceilings in place and many of the old barriers to progression are still there. Look to where the true power and wealth reside and you'll find very very few female faces. Precious few asian or black ones also. Follow a trail down from the lines of power and as you move down you'll see more female faces. Get to the unskilled menial work and you'll find ever more. Look to the temping agencies and the part timers who work with no rights or protections and that's where you'll find many of the women.

Meantime domestic violence is at an astonishing high and recent studies show a disturbing attitude amongst school age males towards females and violence.

If I as someone who hasnt been blighted with verymuch of the downside of being female in today's britain, hear the stories of those who do suffer the worst aspects of society's sexism, I feel a sense of kinship to the woman and I feel a sense of anger at the unfairness of it. I also feel a sense of...there but for the grace of fate go I. It's natural to search for likeness in others. It's a natural human instinct to associate into those that are like.

Even if someone has had the very good fortune to be born black in a white world and still succeed, that doesnt mean they cease to feel their brother's pain and nor should they ( in my opinion) If they stop fighting the race war thne they'll lose it ...again. What they understand, and what I would tend to agree with ...is that the race war hasnt ended, it's just become more covert.....White society has very much not stopped fighting that war, even if individual white people have

Thats my tuppen'orth anyway *smiles* bit rambling but that's what happens when ya log in first thing in the morning and come round with coffee and cellar :P
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