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Old 04-15-2004, 08:05 AM   #46
Undertoad
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To the Christians: harshly questionning your beliefs is not an attack on you personally.

If you would like to see a personal attack, so you can tell the difference, that can be arranged.
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Old 04-15-2004, 08:53 AM   #47
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Is there free will in heaven? Absolutely.

For me, Heaven represents the absence of temptation. Heaven is the one place the devil can't work his mojo and since the devil is the source (although not the responsible party) of whatever separation there might be between humans and God, the absence of temptation, is, therefore, heaven (unity with God).

At least that's the presumption I operate under however ignorant it must appear to people who believe otherwise.
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Old 04-15-2004, 09:15 AM   #48
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So if the devil were eliminated, Earth would become paradise, regardless of free will?
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Old 04-15-2004, 10:01 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Happy Monkey
So if the devil were eliminated, Earth would become paradise, regardless of free will?
I have no idea what would happen to Earth if Satan suddenly ceased to exist. My answer above (no pun intended - nyuk, nyuk) was for Heaven.

I'd have to think about Earth. But, my prelim guess is that Earth would be paradise-like (we're still human and so I can't rule out suffering which may preclude calling Earth paradise) if Satan (or the personificaiton of evil) stopped exerting influence on people's actions and intentions. At a minimum, I think things would be a little better than they are if and when things we all pretty much agree are evil suddenly became a thing of the past.

I guess the degree to which one might be inclined to refer to a world without temptation as paradise would have to be a function of where that person is now. A drug lord who's living large on the backs of his addicts might call the "new world" hell whereas a North Korean starving in solitary for a political "crime" might be inclined to call the new world paradise.
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Old 04-15-2004, 10:27 AM   #50
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I think heaven's here on earth (as is hell). It is up to each of us through our use of free will to act so that there will be a little bit of heaven in our lives and those of the people around us. We can also choose to act to create hell. I don't believe in Satan. There's only foolish (or down-right sociopathic) human beings. In my life I have met many "angels" - ordinary human beings who act with kindness and compassion.
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Old 04-15-2004, 11:37 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by lumberjim
"the truth about god" - YOUR truth. keep it to yourself, thanks.
LJ, this is what I've ranted about in other threads. Why is it that the only group of people who are supposed to "keep it to themselves" are Christians? Anti-christians are not about free thought, no matter what they otherwise preach. They consistently demonstrate the most closed-minded attitude of any group.

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as for data, there is none. no way to know, so how can you say you're anymore right than i am? I'm not saying you're definatley wrong, I'm saying that you are no more right than I am. not even a little bit.
I say it isn't about me being right or you being right. If there is something that is true, it's true, regardless of what you or I believe. As for data, there's scads of it. Untold volumes of it. Millenia-worth. It just doesn't fit into your system of measurement.

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well yeah, that's what I'm saying (re: Xtians are nuts)
If I'm wrong in my beliefs, I haven't lost anything. I'll die and there will be nothing but oblivion. But if you're wrong, you've lost everything. Knowing what I know, it's not a gamble I'm willing to take, regardless of the immediate state of my 'faith' at any given moment.

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the brainwashing of religion is so fundemantal and basic that even otherwise intelligent people succumb to it.
I haven't mentioned religion once. I believe in God because of faith, which I came by independently of any organized theology. My beliefs are deeply held, and come from a desire to be more in touch with the world around me and with the creator of that world. Your beliefs can be summed up with "ain't no God gonna tell me what to do." We have different definition of intelligence.
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Old 04-15-2004, 11:55 AM   #52
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Originally posted by mrnoodle
If I'm wrong in my beliefs, I haven't lost anything. I'll die and there will be nothing but oblivion. But if you're wrong, you've lost everything.
What if Islam is correct? Then we've both lost.
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Old 04-15-2004, 12:06 PM   #53
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Why is it that the only group of people who are supposed to "keep it to themselves" are Christians?
because they're the only ones trying to force their beleifs on this country. the great white burden and all.



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They consistently demonstrate the most closed-minded attitude of any group.
yet you summarily reject my beliefs, as i've outlined above
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If there is something that is true, it's true, regardless of what you or I believe. As for data, there's scads of it. Untold volumes of it. Millenia-worth. It just doesn't fit into your system of measurement.
it doesnt fit my definition of accurate data. how can anyone who is still alive tell us about the hereafter?

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I believe in God because of faith, which I came by independently of any organized theology.
bullshit. you believe in god because everyone expects you to.
from the very beginning, you've been led to believe without proof. faith. faith is another way of saying, "trust me" which is Yiddish for "fuck you"

Quote:
Your beliefs can be summed up with "ain't no God gonna tell me what to do." We have different definition of intelligence.
my beliefs cannot be summed up by saying anything. maybe you're right about us having different def's of intelligence. your blinders are getting in your way.
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Old 04-15-2004, 01:00 PM   #54
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because they're the only ones trying to force their beleifs on this country. the great white burden and all.
While I can't argue that many of us are pushy about our beliefs, we don't do it any more than any other group. The vegans don't want me to be able to go to McDonalds. The atheists don't want kids to be able to have prayer groups at school. Muslims think Jews are full of shit. Jews think Christians are full of shit. Christians think atheists are full of shit. In modern American society, however, only Christians are considered fair game for your scorn. SNL occasionally pokes light fun at Jews with Brooklyn accents, but that's it. Imagine the outrage at a Muslim version of the Church Lady.
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yet you summarily reject my beliefs, as i've outlined above
Yes. We summarily reject one another's beliefs because they are diametrically opposed. It's the nature of the beast. However, I don't go around calling all non-Christians delusional. I just say they're wrong. Big difference in tone, dude.
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it doesnt fit my definition of accurate data. how can anyone who is still alive tell us about the hereafter?
They can't tell you what color the drapery is, or whether or not we have to play harps 24 hrs a day. But they can tell you about the peace they feel when they've come to grips with their own sinful nature and the relationship between themselves and God that they perceive on a very deep level.
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bullshit. you believe in god because everyone expects you to.
Don't start getting personal. I don't presume to know your motives, stay away from mine unless I tell you what they are.
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from the very beginning, you've been led to believe without proof. faith. faith is another way of saying, "trust me" which is Yiddish for "fuck you"
I was taught about God in childhood. I didn't become convinced of his existence until later. My faith doesn't need proof, but the proof I see bolsters my faith. My conversion happened as a result of trying (and failing) to live a life without meaning. I spent all my time trying to find pleasure for myself. Being a fairly decent sort, I spent money on others and tried to make them happy - but never at the expense of my own pleasure and immediate happiness. I got everything I wanted, like any spoiled brat. I was utterly miserable. Couldn't get high enough, couldn't get laid enough, couldn't even go hunting enough to kill the ache that I pretended wasn't there.

The longer I think about it, the more offended I am that you would insult my experience by saying that I'm just parroting what some preacher told me. I get that you're bitter about something, but it wasn't my fault, man. Read The Case for Christ for an example of a journalist who set out to disprove Christianity and..um..fell victim to the brainwashing of hordes of mindless fable-obsessed morality zombies.
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Old 04-15-2004, 01:16 PM   #55
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I think it's time to set the record straight about something else. There's a little difference between my faith and my politics. The latter is influenced by the former, but I don't think government should necessarily be rooted in theology. Yah, it would be nice, from my point of view. But I think the Denver Broncos should win every football game they play, too. Let's just say I think secular government works better if it's populated by those who don't ignore the belief system of a large portion of their constituency.
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Old 04-15-2004, 01:54 PM   #56
lumberjim
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Don't start getting personal. I don't presume to know your motives, stay away from mine unless I tell you what they are.
Nothing personal about what i said. no more than you intimating that i'm not intelligent, anyway:
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We have different definition of intelligence.
hell, noodle, i dont even know your name. ( i dropped the "mr" because that is a term of respect, and right now, my respect for you is slipping)

i find it highly unlikely that :
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I believe in God because of faith, which I came by independently of any organized theology.
independantly? really? I. myself, have a kernel of doubt about this because of the information I was given all of my life about this. Even though logically, I feel that if there is a "GOD", then it's just as likely to be any of the available religions' god, or pagan gods, or the force as it is to be the god that lives in heaven. My parents are christian, my school taught us the christian faith, although they aren't supposed to. Our leaders and government, the TV, the people I talked to growing up. all calmly accept the christian faith as a given, and are surprised when they encounter someone who disbelieves.

how can you say you were not influenced by organized religion? it's insidious. it's everywhere. unavoidable. you claim to take credit for arriving at the same conclusion by coincedence? that's why i said "bullshit"...because it is. you may not have noticed, but you were taught to believe in god.

You all might be right, noodle. but, so might I be. and so might the Jews, the Buddhists, the Muslims.

and I don't summarily dismiss your belief. It is every bit as likely as mine. I reject your pity:
Quote:
If I'm wrong in my beliefs, I haven't lost anything. I'll die and there will be nothing but oblivion. But if you're wrong, you've lost everything.
if i'm not a christian, what makes you think i've lost anything? hubris, i say. you ASSUME that everyone wants to go to "heaven" and praise the Lord for eternity. sounds like a real picnic.
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Old 04-15-2004, 02:25 PM   #57
OnyxCougar
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faith is not brainwashed. The unthinking sheep can have faith, because he never thought about what he is being fed.

The person who thinks about the subject and has had a personal experience can have faith independantly (IOW, not directly caused by) the preponderance of religion in his/her life.

I have to agree with Noodles on this one Jim, and I've noticed that the subject of religion pushes the "asshole" button on you. It makes you cranky and tends to make you personally attack. Just an observation.
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Old 04-15-2004, 02:38 PM   #58
lumberjim
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrnoodle


The longer I think about it, the more offended I am that you would insult my experience by saying that I'm just parroting what some preacher told me. I get that you're bitter about something, but it wasn't my fault, man. Read The Case for Christ for an example of a journalist who set out to disprove Christianity and..um..fell victim to the brainwashing of hordes of mindless fable-obsessed morality zombies.
I'm not trying to insult your experience. I'm saying that because you enjoy your belief in GOD, doesn;t mean I have to. Nor does it mean that I will go to hell because I don't believe what you believe.

I am happy for you that you have your faith. i'm sure it helps you on a daily basis. really. i'm not being sarcastic. you seem like a good dude. go with god. you'll probably go to heaven when you die. My real opinion is that you experience what you expect to experience when you die. you judge yourself.

i believe in reincarnation
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Old 04-15-2004, 02:55 PM   #59
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Time to ratchet it down a notch. Your intelligence isn't in question, and I'm sorry if I came across that way. As for the rest:
Quote:
independantly? really? I. myself, have a kernel of doubt about this because of the information I was given all of my life about this.
I'm saying that I had an experience that proved to my satisfaction the existence of God. This experience happened during a period of searching that resulted from a lifetime of rebelling against what I had been taught about God. Nobody "made" me believe anything. I didn't believe it, didn't want to believe it, thought it was a crutch for weak-minded fools and a tool of the establishment to gain control over the populace. I was a fairly proficient tarot card reader (albeit with no training), dabbled in nature worship, went the hedonism route for a few years, then was fairly agnostic until I finally realized that life with God was far richer than life without. Why would I ignore a revelation like that? When I saw people's lives and attitudes change dramatically for the better because they had (or "felt they had", if that's more palatable to you) a personal relationship with God (again, insert quotes wherever they suit you), it made an impression. It didn't have much to do with my upbringing - my parents are consistently horrified by my behavior. The only thing we really agree on is that Jesus died so we didn't have to. What's so wrong with that? The fact that I tell other people about it? Sorry to step in their preconceived notion of the horrors of "religion", but they'll get over it.
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You all might be right, noodle. but, so might I be. and so might the Jews, the Buddhists, the Muslims.
Might be. A bird flying overhead *might* belong to a number of species, but the possibilities don't really matter. It's either a bluebird, or a blackbird, or whatever. The other choices are necessarily void. If it makes one happy to call a blackbird a stork, fine. But if I know better, don't expect me to give your opinion equal weight to mine.
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if i'm not a christian, what makes you think i've lost anything? hubris, i say. you ASSUME that everyone wants to go to "heaven" and praise the Lord for eternity. sounds like a real picnic.
If I see that a giant boulder is falling down a mountain towards your house, I feel it's my responsibility to warn you. If the boulder turns out to be a pebble, or takes a course away from your house, that's fine. I did what I thought was right. As for assuming that everyone wants to praise the lord for all eternity, I don't. I would think that people's aversion to that fate is made clear simply by turning on the television.

What makes me think you will lose something? What makes you think you haven't?
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Old 04-15-2004, 03:10 PM   #60
lumberjim
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Quote:
Originally posted by OnyxCougar
faith is not brainwashed. The unthinking sheep can have faith, because he never thought about what he is being fed.

The person who thinks about the subject and has had a personal experience can have faith independantly (IOW, not directly caused by) the preponderance of religion in his/her life.

I have to agree with Noodles on this one Jim, and I've noticed that the subject of religion pushes the "asshole" button on you. It makes you cranky and tends to make you personally attack. Just an observation.
my "asshole button"? that's a good one. don;t get shit on your finger!

rofl.....

you're right about those that choose to believe and have faith. i said brainwashing. that was too strong a word. i refer to the effect that the cumulative opinion of the masses has on the individual. the "peer pressure"....

I may seem cranky. what i really am feeling is disapointment. or bewilderment.

as i said before, i find it appalling that people who's opinions I normally respect......break down and fall back on "faith" as their argument. faith is not an argument. faith is believing something that you can't prove. While I can;t prove them wrong. my position is at least as valid as theirs. why can;t we just say " i dunno?"

neither of you two have said ...hey, yeah, your idea is just as good as mine. I've repeated that several times now. respect me, and i'll respect you.
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