The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Home Base

Home Base A starting point, and place for threads don't seem to belong anywhere else

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-12-2007, 12:31 PM   #211
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
It's still what could be done now and what might be done in the future as separate possibilities.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2007, 12:34 PM   #212
Flint
Snowflake
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Dystopia
Posts: 13,136
As outlined by a lengthy text description, coupled with a disconnected image that relates to a concept which is not explained at all. Confusing.
__________________
******************
There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
Flint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2007, 12:48 PM   #213
Cicero
Looking forward to open mic night.
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 5,148
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9th Engineer View Post
I'm confused as to where your references to CO2 keep coming from. I mentioned NO2 (nitrous oxide) in my post as one possibility of sedation in the case of a violent inmate.
I suppose I did leave a logic gap between my two posts. The first was a description of something we could implement with current technology levels that directly addressed a short list of specific issues within the current system, but certainly not all. The second was a look at the far future with technology that won't be viable for another 20-40 years. I also should have clarified the specific use of storage type prisons. I can't realistically see it being the best option except in cases like extremely high risk or violent offenders who are serving very long sentences. If someone is serving 40-life then no matter what you do, by the time they step back onto the street (if ever) they will know nothing but prison life and society no matter what you try to teach them inside. Rehabilitation is essentially pointless there.

Ooooh. It's not as as bad as I thought..........Just Nitrous. Nitrous good- rehabilitation pointless......
9th, where were you when I was 19?!?
lol!!!
Ya know what? Where did CO2 come from? I am kind of busy- sorry 9th sometimes I'm a skimmer....

Rehabilitation runs deeper than current fads and trends...you can be rehabilitated and not know jack about myspace. It's the difference between learning how to use a computer and stealing one. I wouldn't ever say rehabilitation is ever pointless for anyone.
That includes myself.....using the true definition rehabilitation I'm sure there are things even I could use rehabilitation for.


I still don't think your pods would serve a purpose. I think it's cruel, unusual, and pointless. Yes, again, like a futuristic Iron Maiden. Just because the scars are psychological doesn't make them scars any less.
__________________
Show me a sane man, and I will cure him for you.- Carl Jung

Last edited by Cicero; 09-12-2007 at 12:58 PM.
Cicero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2007, 12:54 PM   #214
glatt
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 27,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinx View Post
How would they do that? Specifically.
I don't know. But we were talking in terms of a sf movie that takes place in the future, so maybe if they adjusted the tachyon pulses so they were out of phase with the nanotube delivery system, the pulses could stimulate the neocortex of the prisoners and cause a behavioral modification. Something like that.

If we were to talk about the prison system today, I'm still no expert, but I would start by separating the violent criminals from the rest, and then put the rest in a vocational education program. A substance abuse program would probably be a good idea for most as well. The violent ones are a little trickier. They shouldn't be released back into society if they are still violent. If that means throwing away the key, then so be it. But even the violent ones should have an attempt made to rehabilitate them. That might mean talk therapy while in prison or some other therapy to try to straighten them out followed by a vocational training once they are no longer violent. We spend enough money per prisoner already. Spending a bunch more to rehabilitate them might just lower the recidivism rate down to the point where we would save money in the long run.
glatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2007, 02:08 PM   #215
piercehawkeye45
Franklin Pierce
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,695
I don't see how torturing a prisoner and then releasing them back into society will prevent future crimes any more than what happens now. If you tell and show someone that society hates them, that person will be more likely to fight back and rebel against society.

Working to get the criminals to be productive members of society should be the goal of prisons and not to keep them away from society for a length of time just so they come out hating society even more than they came in. A lot of prisons have many books for prisoners to read and learn (some are actually being banned now) and if we expand on that, some good could actually come out of the prison system instead of what we have now. It will be much more work and there will be failures but I actually see some worth in doing this as opposed to 9th's plan.
piercehawkeye45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2007, 05:34 PM   #216
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,964
Quote:
The second was a look at the far future with technology that won't be viable for another 20-40 years.
Oh that's so sweet...you define 20-40 years as far future. Aww bless.
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2007, 07:13 PM   #217
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45 View Post
I don't see how torturing a prisoner and then releasing them back into society will prevent future crimes any more than what happens now.
It won't... kill them now.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2007, 10:52 PM   #218
9th Engineer
Bioengineer and aspiring lawer
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 872
Quote:
Working to get the criminals to be productive members of society should be the goal of prisonsand not to keep them away from society for a length of time just so they come out hating society even more than they came in.
In order for criminals to become productive members of society, they must want to do so. We can talk with them, provide counselors to give them a chance to work out issues or grudges, but unless you can get them to want it, you might as well set fire to your money. If you had to make some educated guesses about what makes a person not want to be a productive member of society, what would you say pierce?
As for the length of prison term, how would altering that affect how they view society? If a person is so delusional that doing the time for their crime makes them hate their victims even more, then we're screwed. If we don't punish them, they continue to commit crimes. If we punish them, they get out and commit worse crimes. Your only option would be to either execute them or lock them up and forget about them.

Quote:
It will be much more work and there will be failures but I actually see some worth in doing this as opposed to 9th's plan.
I need to hear the answer to one main question. How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners? Are they misguided delinquents who are misguided and can be 'shown the light' of honest labor and contribution to society? Do you see them as stupid clods who never learned where to draw the line and need to be reeducated? What about people of normal intelligence who know what they're doing and see it as a lifestyle?
__________________
The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.
9th Engineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 03:36 AM   #219
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,964
Quote:
How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners?
They are generally people who have committed crimes. Beyond that it's hard to generalise when you are talking about somany individuals.
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 08:40 AM   #220
glatt
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 27,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9th Engineer View Post
How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners?
I think drug abuse is the main problem the majority (or if not majority then a very large portion) have. They are drug addicts who committed crimes to support their habit. They are drug dealers who are trying to live their misguided version of the American dream. I think for many, possibly most, of the prisoners in this country, a drug rehab program is a huge part of the solution.
glatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 01:17 PM   #221
Cicero
Looking forward to open mic night.
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 5,148
Quote:
Originally Posted by glatt View Post
I think drug abuse is the main problem the majority (or if not majority then a very large portion) have. They are drug addicts who committed crimes to support their habit. They are drug dealers who are trying to live their misguided version of the American dream. I think for many, possibly most, of the prisoners in this country, a drug rehab program is a huge part of the solution.
Yep- right on Glatt. Except, as in the case of my brother, he is disabled with a severe mental disability and he keeps getting picked up and taken to jail instead of a nuthouse where he could get treated for it. He is a severe paranoid schizophrenic. His "crimes" are benign...his handicaps are severe.
Our jails are full of addicts and mentally handicapped people or a combination thereof.
Whaddaya know...they are 10 times worse when they get out. Why? Because people like my brother weren't a damned criminal in the first place, handicapped, and sent to a hostile environment. He can't even put it together for his own defense!!! He's guilty always by reason of insanity even when he's innocent. He cannot even communicate his own innocence! Because he doesn't know what happened!!!!
The crazy guy obviously started the trouble......bullshit. He has actually been bullied, victimized, and can't even comprehend his own innocence nor voice it in some situations. Off to jail with ya- just because you are the one that's obviously broken. Has nothing to do with the events or facts....he just seems like he needs to be locked up.....I know they are thinking- he must be on some heavy shit...No...he's handicapped....


I also know a guy that was a little slow.....he kept getting picked up for over-reacting in his own defense, he wasn't so stupid that he didn't know that people were making fun of him and a lot of assholes were....instead of delivering him to a costly facility- they kept taking him to jail too.
Instead of hitting the people that were being jerks he would hit a news stand or something else out of impotent rage.....I think the people making fun of him should have gone to jail instead. Talk about baiting someone weaker until they over-react just cuz ya can. Fuck 'tards......
__________________
Show me a sane man, and I will cure him for you.- Carl Jung
Cicero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 01:28 PM   #222
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,964
Christ, Cicero you must have very little faith in the judicial system by now.
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 02:15 PM   #223
piercehawkeye45
Franklin Pierce
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9th Engineer View Post
In order for criminals to become productive members of society, they must want to do so. We can talk with them, provide counselors to give them a chance to work out issues or grudges, but unless you can get them to want it, you might as well set fire to your money.
And you don't think many criminals wouldn't want to be a productive member of society if they had the chance? As Dana pointed out, you are generalizing all criminals into one group which is about as far from the truth as you can get. Some people, I actually know one person that almost did this, commit crimes out of desperation and are very moral people when they are not pushed to the edge and others turn to drug dealing because it is more profitable than working a minimum wage job. Are these people bad, no, just that they just choose a life of crime because a life without crime is not reasonable or worth it.

Quote:
If you had to make some educated guesses about what makes a person not want to be a productive member of society, what would you say pierce?
Hopelessness, social environment, and that a life of crime is more reasonable and profitable for the non-anti social people. Anti-social behavior can not be changed so you have to a separate group fro that. This starts to get into the topic of how poverty affects crime levels.

Quote:
As for the length of prison term, how would altering that affect how they view society?
I never said change the length of time.

Quote:
If a person is so delusional that doing the time for their crime makes them hate their victims even more, then we're screwed.
It is how they are doing time, not the actual process of being punished for crimes. If you look at prisoners right now, many are turning to religious extremism as a way to make their lives worthwhile. That gives a very good insight about how criminals view their lives, hopelessness usually, and if you take away that hopelessness, things can change for the better. If you take two people that committed the same crime with the same social background prior to the criminal activity and lock them up, one with a feeling of hopelessness and one with a feeling that you can get back on your feet if you choose too when released, the outcome of the two people will most certainly be different when they are both let out. What I am proposing is to change prisons from a general feeling of hopelessness to rehabilitation so they can back on track when they leave and you have not addressed that point. Of course some people will not choose to change, but separation of those two groups should be relatively easy and those two groups can get separate punishments.

Quote:
If we don't punish them, they continue to commit crimes. If we punish them, they get out and commit worse crimes. Your only option would be to either execute them or lock them up and forget about them.
You are making an assumption that those are the only two options...

Quote:
I need to hear the answer to one main question. How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners? Are they misguided delinquents who are misguided and can be 'shown the light' of honest labor and contribution to society? Do you see them as stupid clods who never learned where to draw the line and need to be reeducated? What about people of normal intelligence who know what they're doing and see it as a lifestyle?
You can't clump all criminals into one group or even a majority because there probably isn't a majority. There are very smart criminals that have chosen a life a crime because it suit them best, some are stupid clots, some are anti-social (link to article on real anti-social behavior) in nature and are hopeless to reeducate, some are misguided, some are there because of accidents and so on. There should be a system to separate the ones that can be helped from the ones that can't and work on both groups separately.

The best thing we could do for the prison system would be to decriminalized illegal drugs.
piercehawkeye45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 02:38 PM   #224
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,964
There are also, as Cicero pointed out, many people in prison who by rights should have been given psychiatric care at some stage and indeed many who have. A lot of people are in prison because they are simply not equipped to deal with things that most of us deal with routinely. Such as the guy who understood he was being taunted but didn't have the capacity to deal with it in a societally acceptable way.

There is also a much higher rate of illiteracy amongst the prison population than amongst the general population. There is a recognised pattern where a child living in a chaotic environment (generally speaking poverty makes for a chaotic and insecure existence) or with dyslexia, finds themself falling behind their peers at school. This is a particularly bad problem amongst boys. They quickly learn to mask their inability with 'bad' behaviour, get bored in lessons because they're no longer able to follow it, and act up even more. This is often then followed by truancy and a sense of social dislocation.

Many of these lads end up in trouble very young. We see more and more 12 and 13 year olds entering the judicial system and the profile I just gave you accounts for a ridiculously high proportion of them. A friend of mine (my ex team-leader) teaches literacy/basic skills in Strangeways Prison (one of our more notorious facilities in Manchester). Most of the lads she deals with have very low literacy levels, with several being unable even to recognise their names on a register (a standard pre-entry level test).

It's hard to live in the modern world if you cannot read or write adequately. How do you fill out a job application form? How do you access health care? The stigma attached those with literacy problems is huge. They've often spent their entire life being told either by parents, teachers or fellow pupils that they are stupid or 'thick'. Much of the world is closed to you if you cannot read above the level of a seven year old.

If on top of this difficulty you are surrounded by a culture that holds a tacit acceptance of some types of crime and violence (the subcultures that exist in grey little pockets of wealthy countries) being drawn into that as a way of navigating the world, and possibly commanding the respect of your fellows is as likely as not.

Add to that the many people who fill western jails for minor crimes which cause nobody any physical harm or endangerment and really, it is difficult to come up with picture that the majority of prisoners adhere to.
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 02:40 PM   #225
9th Engineer
Bioengineer and aspiring lawer
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 872
Quote:
And you don't think many criminals wouldn't want to be a productive member of society if they had the chance?
Most do have the opportunity, both before they went to jail and again afterwards. I'm talking about convincing the people who have decided to turn to crime because of more money/fewer responsibilities or whatever. I'm not talking about those who no possibility of ever being part of society which are basically the ones with severe disorders that need a separate facility.

Quote:
commit crimes out of desperation and are very moral people when they are not pushed to the edge
These people are not an issue at all. I'd be willing to bet that a prison system full of them would be a walk in the park to manage.

As for hopelessness, I'm not sure of the details but don't we already offer life management advise and such to inmates in all but maximum security? You can't just 'take away' someone's hopelessness with positive talk. You can offer a library and online courses to those willing to make a change in their life but that's about it.

I'd be willing to debate the issue of decriminalizing drugs from a practical perspective, but we'll need a new thread for that. I won't say where I stand on it in here to avoid a drift.

Separation is a good idea, and would go a very long way towards solving lots of problems. It's probably extremely hard to do in real life, but that's partially why I think prisons should not be built around large common areas. I have a tiny bit more on this in a different thread I think.
__________________
The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.
9th Engineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:02 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.