The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Technology

Technology Computing, programming, science, electronics, telecommunications, etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-12-2008, 05:26 AM   #16
Beestie
-◊|≡∙■∙≡|◊-
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Parts unknown.
Posts: 4,081
Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
...Then get Fios installed. ...Verizon and Comcast are creating a monopoly. They got the 1996 Communication Act revised so that nobody else can use their wires.
I get bundled service from Cox (TV/Internet/Landline) and am very happy with it. And Cox is wiring the area for digital so they seem to be staying one step ahead of Verizon. But I do realize that this area is probably an exception to the rule.

I don't know enough about the market to evaluate the idea that Comcast and Verizon have enough of an advantage to create a monopoly/oligopoly whatever but I have to wonder how long an advantage that hinges on exclusivity of a physical distribution system (wires, cables, fiber, etc.) will last. With wireless telephone and TV being widely available, wireless internet can't be far behind which would pretty much wipe out their current stranglehold.

I'm no fan of monopolies but they are almost a necessary evil. If monopolies were benevolent overlords then the economic inefficiency they create would not exist. And it is this inefficiency which provides an economic incentive to provide the same good/service for less by innovating new and better systems of production and distribution.

So in the long run, monopolies cannot survive. But they will always be around. Its just part of a natural cycle.
__________________
Beestie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 06:20 AM   #17
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beestie View Post
I get bundled service from Cox (TV/Internet/Landline) and am very happy with it. And Cox is wiring the area for digital so they seem to be staying one step ahead of Verizon.
Cox is simply the Comcast of that region. Same monopoly - just change the two words - Cox and Verizon?

They don't rewire for digital. Your analog TV antenna is also a digital antenna. Same wires carry digital or analog - if wires were properly installed.

1950 copper telephone wires were sufficient for DSL. In every case, the bottleneck is what those wires connect to - not the wires.

Same with fiber optics. That bandwidth keeps increasing not due to more fiber. Existing fiber bandwidth keep increasing over the years due to the word that also makes America great - innovation.

Why was DSL not installed starting 1981? No rewiring necessary. But the local monopolist refused to replace that circuit switch computer with a packet switch computer. 1996 Federal Commication Act was Clinton saysing that if the company does not innovate, then anyone else can install that innovation on same company lines.

Notice how often companies will not innovate until required by government law - big steel, domestic automakers, coal fired power plants, etc.

Monopolies should only exist if their monopoly is due to innovation. Unfortunately, even those monopolies get corrupted as bean counters move in to stifle innovation - because their only purpose is profits.

What saves companies? Free market forces. For example the greatest America patriots bought cars manufactured in 1960 Moscow if those cars were the best. Buy American creates monopolies, destroys innovation, and undermines America. Threat of bankruptcy being one of the few tools that attacks the enemy of every company with vindiction. That enemy is a CEO who comes from business schools and only worked in fianance - does not come from where the work gets done.

Well, free maket competition saved 1990 IBM. Free market competition works because it attacks the enemy of every company - defective bean counter management. No matter how good Verizon and Comcast are today, their monopolitist market is ripe territory for MBAs to take over, stifle innovation, destroy jobs, and preach a doctine that always promotes corruption and threatens America: "The purpose of a company is its profits."

It was a silly myth that if multiple companies must install lines in the same neighborhood, then nobody would be profitable. Equivalent to saying only Intel patented technology can exist in an Intel microprocessor. Complete MBA bullshit. In free markets, companies even share the same telephone pole - despite what those MBAs say to justify monopolies.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 07:38 AM   #18
glatt
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 27,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beestie View Post
Question:

Why not the TV?
It adds $40/month to the price. We don't currently have cable and try to not watch a bunch of TV. It's on 2-3 hours a day, which is well below the national average, but still too much. If we had a zillion HD channels, the whole family would watch a lot more tv, and we don't want that. Especially for the kids.
glatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 07:58 AM   #19
glatt
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 27,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
Smarter is to prepare for their installation. All networking, TV cable, phone, etc must enter and meet at a common service entrance with the fuse box. Simply prewire your Cat5 or Cat 6 cables to that point or where the WiFi router will be located (see below). If necessary, reroute all existing phones and cable TV wires to that point.

Install an AC receptacle on the box best with its own circuit breaker. Reserve an area on the wall to mount those Verizon boxes. Locate someplace (ie in the basement ceiling in the joists) where the WiFi router can have a mostly unobstructed transmission to the rest of the house. If not adjacent to the breaker box, then wire an AC receptacle for the Wifi that connects to the same above dedicated circuit.

Best is to install a separate duplex plug so that an existing receptacle is still available for other temporary equipment use such as a light to see and service the breaker box. And again, dedicated (separate) breaker because the system is essential for human safety.
This is all excellent advice, and wasn't clear at all from the Verizon FIOS webpage they gave me to prepare for the FIOS install.

I'm not going to have the FIOS service entrance near our electrical service entrance because that's in my woodworking shop, and it gets very dusty in there at times. Can't be good for high tech equipment. I'll have them put it in the cleaner half of the basement in the area where the current phone and natural gas enter. I plan to run a dedicated circuit (which I believe must be GFCI protected because it's an unfinished basement) to a receptacle there. Then I'll mount a large, maybe 2x3 foot, sheet of plywood to the concrete block wall there to accept all the equipment. You have an interesting thought about the wifi being located in the basement. I'll have to think about that. I assumed we would put it in one of our first floor rooms right next to the desktop PC. We have no laptops, but that will probably change in the future, and guests visit often with their laptops. They will appreciate the wifi.

I'm pissed off at Verizon for canceling our perfectly good DSL, but in the long run this is probably a good move. The price for this FIOS package is roughly equal to what we are currently paying for phone and internet, and the connection speeds are 10 times faster coming down and 8 times faster going up. I'll miss our old e-mail address though.
glatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 08:57 AM   #20
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
Quote:
Cox is simply the Comcast of that region. Same monopoly
You know, you're overlooking a lot.

A decade ago, most people in the US had:

- one choice for local phone service
- 3-4 choices for long distance voice
- three expensive choices for wireless
- three choices for TV cable (local wired, two satellites, max 100 channels)
- a large number of choices for low-speed Internet access
- a few expensive choices for medium-speed Internet access (ISDN)

NOW, most people in the US have:

- four choices for TV cable (two locally wired, two satellites, max 500 channels)
- 4+ choices for local phone (what with Vonage and Skype and whatnot)
- 4-5 moderately expensive choices for wireless
- basically no choices for long distance voice, because the industry has changed
- two choices for high-speed Internet access
- a large number of choices for medium-speed Internet access (wireless with data plan, DSL, the satellites)
- a large number of choices for low-speed Internet access (dial-up)
- one choice for satellite radio (two delivery systems, satellite or internet)
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 09:08 AM   #21
Beestie
-◊|≡∙■∙≡|◊-
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Parts unknown.
Posts: 4,081
Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
Cox is simply the Comcast of that region. Same monopoly - just change the two words - Cox and Verizon?
Both Cox and Verizon compete in this area (Northern Virginia). I can choose either one for any service (TV/tel/internet all from one, all from the other or TV from Cox and tel from Verizon or vice versa or TV from Dish, internet from Verizon and tel from Cox, etc., etc.).

They both can't be monopolies in the same coverage area when there are no restrictions on what I can purchase from either one. And neither one requires a contract - I can switch back and forth at any time without penalty.

There is no disadvantage to go with either Cox or Verizon or to get TV and tel from yet another provider. I don't see the monopoly. At least not in this area.
__________________
Beestie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 09:10 AM   #22
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by glatt View Post
I plan to run a dedicated circuit (which I believe must be GFCI protected because it's an unfinished basement) to a receptacle there. Then I'll mount a large, maybe 2x3 foot, sheet of plywood to the concrete block wall there to accept all the equipment. You have an interesting thought about the wifi being located in the basement. I'll have to think about that. I assumed we would put it in one of our first floor rooms right next to the desktop PC. We have no laptops, but that will probably change in the future, and guests visit often with their laptops. They will appreciate the wifi.
It's not the old punch-down blocks anymore. It's a big battery, a connection, and a router. It even looks nice. I had them put it in my living room, close to where the connection comes in from the street, and the installers appreciated it. When I added Fios TV, they exchanged my router for one with WiFi for free.
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 09:12 AM   #23
glatt
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 27,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
When I added Fios TV, they exchanged my router for one with WiFi for free.
I think we're getting the wifi router for free.
glatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 09:14 AM   #24
Beestie
-◊|≡∙■∙≡|◊-
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Parts unknown.
Posts: 4,081
Just don't use WEP security. Use WEP2. WEP is a joke nowadays.
__________________
Beestie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 09:16 AM   #25
glatt
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 27,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
It's not the old punch-down blocks anymore. It's a big battery, a connection, and a router. It even looks nice. I had them put it in my living room, close to where the connection comes in from the street, and the installers appreciated it.
Did they bring the fiber optic cable into the house and put all the equipment inside, or did they terminate the fiber optics outside at one box and have everything else inside?
glatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 09:31 AM   #26
Undertoad
Radical Centrist
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
Yeah the cable comes inside and is terminated at a nice putty-colored plastic box which needs AC power via standard outlet. I think it's a little UPS with the "modem" inside, translating whatever protocol they use over the fiber to standard IP for the router.
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 11:23 AM   #27
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
Do you have to have wifi with fios?
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 11:26 AM   #28
glatt
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 27,717
No.
glatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 04:05 AM   #29
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beestie View Post
They both can't be monopolies in the same coverage area when there are no restrictions on what I can purchase from either one. And neither one requires a contract - I can switch back and forth at any time without penalty.
Tell that to the many other soft drink manufacturers who competed against the 'not monopoly' Coke and Pepsi.

A Coke salesman and friend described their 'not monopoly'. Coke would walk into a grocery store with a 26 week contract that put major restrictions on all other soft drink sales AND required major shelf space reserved only for Coke products. Grocery stores had little choice but to sign. 26 weeks later, when the Coke contract expired, then the Pepsi salesman walked in right on schedule to provide the same 26 week contract. Not a monopoly - correct. But even the Coke salesman who was signing up those grocery stores said otherwise.

Why did a container cost more than the Cola inside? Massive profits because the 'not monopolies' could set excessively high profit margins.

Back in the early phone days, AT&T was using almost monopolistic powers to subvert all other phone companies. The government stepped in to break up AT&T. But AT&T management saw it coming. So AT&T quickly proposed massive changes to their operating standards and agreed to comply with something new - what we now called Public Utility Commissions. AT&T changed its corporate philosophy to 'we will service customers, not harm any competitors and expect the PUCs to keep us honest'.

This market model for a monopoly worked as long as the market did not change - as long as disruptive innovations did not occur. By the 1960s, modems were all but virtually banned because only AT&T's gold plated modem was permitted. How much was a modem line even within the same exchange? Somewhere between $200 and $400 per month. Even renting a computer terminal and printer from AT&T cost less per month. But they were a benevolent monopoly. And their predecessors kept another 1981 technology called DSL out of America until all but required by a 1996 Federal Communication Act. But the baby Bells really were no longer a monopoly? If they were not a monopoly, then why could no one get DSL?

Eventually, the courts broke up AT&Ts monopoly because even the kindest and most benevolent monopoly eventually becomes too corrupt.

When it comes to phone and cable service, most everyone now has only two choices. Sure, you can get Cavalier phones. But whose line get used and who sets the rate for those lines? Verizon. Its still Verizon hardware, wires, and buildings. Cavalier is permited just enough 'space' to reap a tiny profit - so that many will believe Comcast and Verizon do not 'share' the monopoly.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 04:16 AM   #30
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by glatt View Post
Did they bring the fiber optic cable into the house and put all the equipment inside, or did they terminate the fiber optics outside at one box and have everything else inside?
I have seen both configurations.

FIOS comes most often with the router (only four ports) and WiFi in one box. Never saw a FIOS without WiFi, however the option is probably available.

For what its worth, DSL comes up to 8 Mb. It screams despite those cable claims of 'slow' DSL. All three - DSL, cable, and FIOS are so fast that bottleneck delays are more often internet congestion or slow servers.

If I did not mention it before, I cannot say enough about WiFi software on computers that measure signal strength in dBs. Those 'five bars' is almost useless. This 'tool' is extremely useful in eliminating WiFi dead spots. One problem for WiFi can be the main metal heat ducts. Wifi is best located above so that these ducts do not obstruct the signal. I corrected WiFi installations by mouting the WiFi up in the joists on a 'table' nailed between those joists. It also do this because I love driving big nails into big wood with a big hammer that has big teeth.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:47 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.