The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Philosophy

Philosophy Religions, schools of thought, matters of importance and navel-gazing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-31-2003, 08:45 PM   #1
juju
no one of consequence
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 2,839
It's not natural

Oftentimes one will hear the phrase, "It's not natural" or, "X is not natural." What is really meant by this phrase? I think that it can be best described by either of the following statements:<blockquote>"It's not moral." <i>or</i>
"It comes from or has been influenced by humans"</blockquote>
Now, I have some serious problems with this concept.

"Natural" is defined as "<i>Present in or produced by nature</i>". The very first page of my Biology 101 textbook told me that man was not apart from nature, but rather a part of it. This coincides with the definition, since nature produced man. In fact, all of the supposedly "evil" things that we created (computers, factories, cars, bridges, etc.) are all made of materials that come from nature, and are put together by a being that is of nature. They exist on the Earth, which is nature. So by what definition are these things "not natural"? They're made of things that come from the Earth, by things that come from the Earth, and they exist on the Earth.

Why do so many people think that humans are innately evil? Is it because of Christianity and its self-hating philosophy? Other animals do evil things, yet they are excused because they are "a part of nature".

I don't get it. Could someone please explain to me how humans are not evil and also not natural?
juju is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2003, 09:51 PM   #2
SteveDallas
Your Bartender
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Philly Burbs, PA
Posts: 7,651
Re: It's not natural

Quote:
Originally posted by juju
Other animals do evil things, yet they are excused because they are "a part of nature".
Evil according to whom?? You're imposing your human-centric world view on the poor beasts!

Quote:
I don't get it. Could someone please explain to me how humans are not evil and also not natural?
Well, permit me to suggest that when you hear someone say "that's not natural," you simply subsitute "I don't like it and I don't have a good reason."

As you point out, in a certain sense an apartment building may not be natural--but if it's not, neither is a beaver's dam or a bee's hive. The word "natural" in this context is completely void of meaning, and is a blank slate upon which the speaker can lay his or her prejudices. Feel free to ignore its use; you have my permission.
SteveDallas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2003, 11:20 PM   #3
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
Very simple.
Human behavior~ Natural means doing what I think is OK.
~ Not natural means doing something I woudn't do, if I thought I might get caught.

Animal behavior~ Natural means my dog is supposed to shit in your yard and hump your leg.
~ not natural means your dog's doing it.

Food~ Natural means no man made compounds, only things that occur naturally like lead, arsenic, mercury, etc.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2003, 01:52 AM   #4
Whit
Umm ... yeah.
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Arkansas, USA
Posts: 949
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;So, any fertilizer used has to come from non-human animals? Damn, not even our crap is natural...

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jokes aside the idea is that humans violate nature. Thus are unnatural. I really think Steve and Bruce nailed it. To give an example, I've heard people argue that homsexuality is unnatural because it's unique to humans. When I pointed out that was absolutely false, even pointed out that a dog on a leg is cross-species as well as often same gender I was told that was due to human influence. Go figure.For the record I did bring up other animals, such as rats, and was told that was scientists just finding what they wanted to. Again, go figure.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;End of the day, I agree it's just a cop-out.
__________________
A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.
Whit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2003, 04:42 AM   #5
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
MALICE & FORETHOUGHT is the key difference between us and the critters.
Bitten by mosquito to swallowed by a whale, we generally rationalize they're just doing what comes naturally. We were invading their turf and frightened them, threatened their young or they were feeding and we got in the way.
We expect a rational and reasoned responce from humans. Humans are viewed as above nature and held accountable for their actions even (maybe especially) if they respond exactly like the other critters. That's why when confronted by senseless violence we say "(S)He's nothing but a damn animal".
If you see a kid with a jackknife stripping the bark from a tree, you chastise them because they should know it will kill the tree. Whereas a bull elk rubbing the velvet off it's antlers is just natures way, even though the result is the same for the tree.
Although the Pine Bark Beetle and loggers both kill a forest there will always be a double standard of accountability.
Animal populations boom and bust regularly because they don't have Live Aid or UNICEF. We are not masters of all we survey but we are the meanest sumbitches in the valley.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2003, 03:52 PM   #6
warch
lurkin old school
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,796
This has me thinking about our old buddy Artist Eduardo Kac and his transgenic artworks - like Alba the bunny. Seems like this question of defining nature is just getting warmed up. Is this evil, or interesting? I'm intrigued, if a little creeped out.
warch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2003, 04:31 AM   #7
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
Good grief, warch. That's more than creepy. Forgive them father, for they know not what they do.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2003, 11:54 AM   #8
warch
lurkin old school
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,796
Kac's piece Genesis, along with others, is coming to our museum this January. Its gonna be a challenge. Here's the skinny. It's rather on topic for this thread:

Quote:
Genesis is a transgenic artwork that explores the intricate relationship between biology, belief
systems,information technology, dialogical interaction, ethics, and the Internet. The key element of the work is an "artist's gene", synthetic gene that was created by Kac by translating a sentence from the biblical book of Genesis into Morse Code, and converting the Morse Code into DNA base pairs according to a conversion principle specially developed by the artist for this work.
The sentence reads: "Let man have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." It was chosen for what it implies about the dubious notion of divinely sanctioned humanity's supremacy
over nature. The Genesis gene was incorporated into bacteria, which were shown in the gallery. Participants on the Web could turn on an ultraviolet light in the gallery, causing real, biological mutations in the bacteria. This changed the biblical sentence in the bacteria. The ability to change the sentence is a symbolic gesture: it means that we do not accept its meaning in the form we inherited it, and that new meanings emerge as we seek to change it.
I think he uses these odd experiments to raise issues about the changing philosophies of science, and thats a good thing.
warch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2003, 12:51 PM   #9
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
Quote
"Let man have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." It was chosen for what it implies about the dubious notion of divinely sanctioned humanity's supremacy over nature.

That sentence and sentiment are creations of human beings. they are both based on a truth that was proven milleniums before that piece was written.
We ARE the baddest sumbitches in the valley and that's what gives us dominion. Nature works that way for ALL critters.
What Kac is questioning is a written statement of import to a minority of a minority of a minority. Christians who follow the old testament and take it literally.
This makes me wonder how this high rent science project qualifies as art, even though it's train wreck fascinating.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2003, 02:08 PM   #10
warch
lurkin old school
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,796
I'll argue that that sentence, from the book of Genesis, has had a profound influence on the historic direction of western science and technology. And though the text itself maybe recognizable today only a smaller group of hardcore Christians, I think its an interesting choice for his text, translation, coding and recoding thing.

And eventhough we are bad sumbitches, nature still has the power to give us a run. (virus, tsunami, stampeding elephants).

Another artist in the exhibition, Daniel Lee has some really haunting photographs that explore the badass possibilities. As we are now able to create lifeforms, whose to say we might not stumble upon, or persue an even badder sumbitch. Whose to say that what we create will lesser, not be our equal, or superior? (cue planet of the apes reel one)

The power inherent in biology is worthy of attention.- Jules Verne... The fact and the fiction. Is it hell or utoptia- or something navigated down the middle. Is Kac's thing art? I say yes, its a visually compelling presentation about these ideas. Just as a science fiction novel, or film, it provides a visual way to cue discussion. Interestingly the major support for the larger exhibition came from theAnimating Democracy Initiative .
warch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2003, 02:53 PM   #11
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
The only reason we survive at all is because nature USUALLY moves slowly. We don't hold a candle to natures power.
But we do hold dominion over the other critters. The herd of stampeding elephants can kill people but couldn't make us extinct. You know we can and almost have the reverse.
The question that people hang on people is what responsibility comes with this power. The deer don't ask the hunters, the anti-hunters ask the hunters. The critters just accept it.
Nature has the power to take this superior position away from us at any time by coming up with something badder. But I just as soon people didn't try to create new things that we aren't sure won't have dominion over us.
Other than being more expensive, whats the difference between Kac's show and spelling the passage out in alphabet soup and stirring with a spoon? Oh wait, lower forms have to do it. OK, throw a couple frogs in the soup.
I'm in awe of the whole invent a gene, splice into bacteria and mutate them, process. What scares me is that someone with that power and ability is so off the wall he would waste it discrediting a passage in a book that doesn't mean a tinkers damn. There are many worthy goals for scientists to pursue.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2003, 03:50 PM   #12
warch
lurkin old school
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,796
Quote:
We don't hold a candle to natures power.
But we do hold dominion over the other critters. The herd of stampeding elephants can kill people but couldn't make us extinct.
We're unlocking nature's power at an amazing rate, as in genomic research. And although those elephants couldnt probably squish us all, a pesky bacteria could have a good crack at it.
Quote:
But I just as soon people didn't try to create new things that we aren't sure won't have dominion over us.
Too late.
Now what do we do? Who decides?
What Kacs is about is what do we do with this knowledge? How can we direct this power ethically?
Quote:
Other than being more expensive, whats the difference between Kac's show and spelling the passage out in alphabet soup and stirring with a spoon?
I think the main difference is that he is using the tools and processes of the contemporary genetic research- by creating a synthetic gene, as has occured in labs around the world- mutating it through the participation of viewers-he's got his hands and our hands on this power. And I think that helps make the mysterious potential a bit more real and compelling, at least for me.

Quote:
What scares me is that someone with that power and ability is so off the wall he would waste it discrediting a passage in a book that doesn't mean a tinkers damn. There are many worthy goals for scientists to pursue.
Not any wierder than Dolly.And I dont see this as a waste, simply because as this work tours, all that see it have the discussion we're having. That's what this is all about. What are worthy goals for science and who gets to decide?
warch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2003, 06:28 PM   #13
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
Quote:
We're unlocking nature's power at an amazing rate, as in genomic research. And although those elephants couldnt probably squish us all, a pesky bacteria could have a good crack at it.
That's right! And this clown is making new spliced bacteria and mutating them into God knows what for art? Not only is he making things of unknown power with unknown consequences, he's not even doing it in a secure lab. He's doing it in your museum.
Quote:
Too late. Now what do we do? Who decides?
What? Too late? What have they made that we can't control, that's killing off mankind?
Quote:
What Kacs is about is what do we do with this knowledge? How can we direct this power ethically?
I can't make that stretch from what I've seen so far, but I'll take your word on it.
Quote:
-he's got his hands and our hands on this power. And I think that helps make the mysterious potential a bit more real and compelling, at least for me.
OK, let's give every third grader a cyanide capsule and see what they do with them. Now there's potential and what third graders do with things they're entrusted with is pretty much a mystery. Think that's ridiculously irresponsible? Bingo.
Quote:
Not any wierder than Dolly.And I dont see this as a waste, simply because as this work tours, all that see it have the discussion we're having. That's what this is all about. What are worthy goals for science and who gets to decide?
Dolly was weird, but not dangerous in itself. Successful cloning isn't a danger but unsuccessful attempts could be. If he wanted to get people talking, all he had to do was whip up a man eating virus and take out Chicago or St Louis.
Half the people who have ever lived, that's ever as in always, died from mosquitoes. How's that for a clear and present danger they could be working on? But alas, they've pretty much taken care of that problem where it's economically viable. That's who gets to decide, as much as I dislike it
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2003, 07:44 PM   #14
Whit
Umm ... yeah.
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Arkansas, USA
Posts: 949
Quote:
From Bruce:
What? Too late? What have they made that we can't control, that's killing off mankind?
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Actually I've heard a lot of compelling arguments that AIDS and the Ebola virus are both man made. Admittedly every bit of it is foil beanie stuff and entirely circumstantial but it's something to think about isn't it?
__________________
A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.
Whit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2003, 07:53 PM   #15
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
I know, Whit. I've read a lot of them too. That's what worries me about this stuff.
Our gummint made weaponized anthrax, but that couldn't fall in the wrong hands, could it.
No matter how ethical these dudes are, they publish their research including the blind alleys they went up that might be of value to unethical people. You know like, when I did this it didn't work because it produced a poison that one drop would kill a billion people.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:46 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.