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Old 02-05-2015, 02:45 PM   #16
Clodfobble
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Sorry I couldn't be more helpful to you.
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Old 02-05-2015, 06:27 PM   #17
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But you were though,Clod. He just didn't read what you meant...or what you didn't type.

Why aren't they fixing the problem? Why can't the vaccine be reformulated so that is does no harm?
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Old 02-05-2015, 06:58 PM   #18
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Because that would mean admitting that it does harm, even if only implicitly, and that will cause a massive lost of trust from the public. Would you listen to someone who said, "Oh yeah, oops, I was totally wrong before, but now, this time, I swear we got it right?" They have no choice but to hold to the party line, and hope that the numbers (i.e. incidence of autoimmune disease) stop rising soon. My personal guess, however, is that the numbers won't stop rising for a long while to go yet. They could have done it right early on and retained the majority of participants in the program, but now they've shot themselves in the foot.

Because look, everything else aside, it's not long before they admit that autism is an autoimmune disease. Kids with autoimmune disease should not get vaccinated, that's a given from both sides. Except the most "current" data (which is to say, medical surveys which are about 8 years behind the curve due to the time it takes to first diagnose a cohort of children born in a certain year, and then collect and analyze that data) says that 1 in 36 boys has autism. That's almost 3% of the male population right there, and herd immunity for measles requires 83-94% of the population be vaccinated. Nevermind the percentage of the population that has celiac (another 1% diagnosed, suspected anywhere from 3-10% undiagnosed,) rheumatoid arthritis (another .6%,) etc. Soon it will get to the point--if it hasn't already--that it won't matter what did or didn't cause it, the number of children who can't get vaccinated will make herd immunity impossible anyway.
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Old 02-06-2015, 04:45 AM   #19
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Are auto immune conditions definitely increasing, or is it that they are being more readily diagnosed as such?
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Old 02-06-2015, 06:23 AM   #20
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Definitely increasing, across the board. Deadly-strength allergies are the easiest example to see--school nurses with literal file cabinets full of epi-pens--but all of them have increased to some degree. Some like to dismiss the celiac increase specifically as better diagnosis, but other diseases like Type I diabetes are really obvious and can't have gone undiagnosed in the past.

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The incidence of Type I diabetes in children under 14 is estimated to increase by three percent annually worldwide.
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Old 02-06-2015, 06:25 AM   #21
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Interesting.
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Old 02-07-2015, 07:36 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble View Post
Phil Plait, aka Bad Astronomer, has a good piece about all the anti-anti-vax polemics.
Allowing myself to be involved just at the periphery of this, because it's three days on and I cannot stop thinking about this one matter:

Phil Plait is like the A-Number-One Super Shamer when it comes to anthropomorphic global warming. He loves it, he's all over it.

So what Plait is now anxious about is that the rhetoric he loves so well on his favorite topic is now being co-opted -- for example the word "deniers" is now being applied to anti-vaxers.

I'm in agreement with him on the science and the skepticism. But he's a hypocrite, and part of the problem.
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Old 02-07-2015, 07:59 AM   #23
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Ah, I didn't know that. I don't generally follow his stuff, I've just come across it in passing a few times. That would indeed make him a giant hypocrite.
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Old 02-07-2015, 12:02 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
So what Plait is now anxious about is that the rhetoric he loves so well on his favorite topic is now being co-opted -- for example the word "deniers" is now being applied to anti-vaxers.
Reading clod's link I see "denier" used once, and that's the reference to Chris Mooney's article which uses the word in the title. If he was concerned about the word being cooped why would he link to a place doing that? I think your reasoning is faulty on that point. Just because he is rabid about anthropomorphic global warming and not rabid about vaccinations, doesn't make him a hypocrite so I don't follow your reasoning?
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Old 02-07-2015, 01:36 PM   #25
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Phil's whole point is that being rabid about an issue (in this case vaccination) further polarizes the opposition and does not, in fact, bring about the change you desire. Yet that is according to Undertoad exactly the tactic he uses on a different issue (global warming.)
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Old 02-07-2015, 01:50 PM   #26
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OK, got it. Thanks.
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Old 02-07-2015, 03:34 PM   #27
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Nothing measly 'bout that.


Oh wait ...
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Old 02-08-2015, 11:48 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Pico and ME View Post
Why aren't they fixing the problem? Why can't the vaccine be reformulated so that is does no harm?
They already took thimerosol out, just to quell these fears, and, as Clodfobble said, the anti-vax people just took that as an admission that vaccines are dangerous, and refuse to believe that any others are safe.
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Old 02-09-2015, 10:37 PM   #29
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From The Economist of 31 Jan 2015:
Quote:
Parents who skip vaccines are often portrayed as pampered fools swayed by conspiracy theorists. Some swear by debunked studies—like one linking the measles vaccine to autism—and dodgy alternative medicine. A gaggle of B-list celebrities such as Jenny McCarthy, a former Playboy model and anti-vaccine megaphone, reinforce this image.
To so many, Kim Kardashian has more credibility than a doctor. Because a child uses feelings to make decisions. Facts and numbers cause a child's eyes to glaze over.

Herd immunity means more than 92% must be vaccinated. Another number that glazed over the eyes of strippers (Jenny McCarthy) and other adult children.
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Old 02-10-2015, 03:15 AM   #30
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It just isn't that simple tw.

The medical and scientific community need to do some serious house clearing before they place blame onto hysterical parents. The Wakefield scandal did not happen in a vacuum.
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