The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Current Events

Current Events Help understand the world by talking about things happening in it

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-10-2015, 06:59 AM   #31
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 20,012
You should google "CDC whistleblower," tw. Or you can just wait for the congressional testimony sometime later this year. There are certainly some valid arguments against what he claims, but regardless, you will find that it is more than just big-breasted starlets who are involved in the debate. Some of them are the real scientists who actually performed the very studies you are referring to.
Clodfobble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2015, 08:39 AM   #32
Lamplighter
Person who doesn't update the user title
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Bottom lands of the Missoula floods
Posts: 6,402
This is a moderately long article deserving of a read..

Andrew Wakefield, father of the anti-vax movement, still insists MMR vaccine causes autism
Newsweek 2/10/15
Quote:
Andrew Wakefield is both revered and reviled. To a small group of parents,
he’s a hero who won’t back down from his assertion that the measles, mumps
and rubella (MMR) vaccine can cause autism.

In the wake of the most recent measles outbreak in the U.S.—which began at the Disneyland
theme park in Southern California in late December 2014 and has since spread to 17 states
and infected more than 100 people—Wakefield defends his views about the measles vaccine.
Quote:
“The responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of those that have been involved in vaccine policymaking, which is totally inadequate and bordering on dangerous,” he says. “The government has only themselves to blame for this problem.”
<snip>
Wakefield dismisses the notion that he bears any responsibility for the current outbreak,
despite decreasing vaccination rates in some parts of the country and
the perpetuated fear of an MMR-autism link:
Quote:
“The people who put the blame on me are really just displacing their inadequacy on others.”
<snip>
Lamplighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2015, 12:27 PM   #33
Lamplighter
Person who doesn't update the user title
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Bottom lands of the Missoula floods
Posts: 6,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble View Post
<snip>
...(which is to say, medical surveys which are about 8 years behind the curve
due to the time it takes to first diagnose a cohort of children born in a certain year,
and then collect and analyze that data) says that 1 in 36 boys has autism.
That's almost 3% of the male population right there, ...
<snip>
@Clod: I am truly not trying to pick a fight with you about your children and
how they are responding to the diet you are using to improve their health.
I do believe parents know their children better than anyone else,
and physicians should (and do) pay attention to them.

I do just have trouble with the more recent statistics that are being advertised,
and used to justify the attacks by some on vaccination programs, etc.

If the definition of "autism spectrum disorder" is spread wide and thin enough,
we can have those numbers come up to 1 in 15, or to 1 in 5, or 1 in 3...
of all children meet the "current definition of ...".

I also have trouble with the Jenny McCarthy-type phenomenon in which
"This is what happened to my child, and it must be true for others..."
One case does not prove cause and effect, but it's very easy to believe,
especially when that person is popular or politically powerful to the public.

Likewise, some cases of "ASD" may or may not be an autoimmune disease,
and in some situations, a child with existing autoimmune disease
truly should not be given a vaccination. But that is a contradictory argument
to whether a given vaccine "caused" the autoimmune disease in an otherwise healthy child.

Even if the argument is against "live virus" vaccines, there is still the question as to the specific virus.
That is, by the time a child has reached one year of age, they have essentially been
exposed to viruses from other members of the family and the public.
And while parents may associate the on-set of a chronic illness with the vaccination,
it still is not necessarily a cause and effect.

While it is completely understandable for parents to search for someone or some thing
to blame for their child's disease, it is hard for me to be patient with the those
who condemn or accuse the world's public health community with foisting
vaccination programs onto the public just to protect reputations or incomes, or whatever.

.
Lamplighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2015, 03:57 PM   #34
Happy Monkey
I think this line's mostly filler.
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 13,575
You know, for kids!

The user reviews are fun.
__________________
_________________
|...............| We live in the nick of times.
| Len 17, Wid 3 |
|_______________| [pics]
Happy Monkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2015, 04:50 PM   #35
Lamplighter
Person who doesn't update the user title
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Bottom lands of the Missoula floods
Posts: 6,402
1,195 reviews, and my wife says it made it to "The View" today !
Lamplighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2015, 10:42 PM   #36
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
The medical and scientific community need to do some serious house clearing before they place blame onto hysterical parents. The Wakefield scandal did not happen in a vacuum.
If housecleaning is necessary, then posted are specific facts that define that housecleaning and where. With the all so important reasons why.

The Wakefield scandal only proves again that many adults ignore facts to instead entertain their feelings. Why did a majority of Americans know smoking increases health? Same concept. It did not happen in a vacuum. It happens where and because so many adults think like children. It was the first thing they were told. Resulting feelings somehow prove an "irrefutable truth".

Many 'feel' vaccines cause autism when facts clearly say otherwise. No way around that reality - if thinking like an adult. But a stripper said otherwise. Amazing how many adults who are still children can be brainwashed by a stripper. A truly responsible adult ignores or rejects statements that come without the required reasons why. Same applies to an unfounded housecleaning accusation.

If you have a fact (that housecleaning is necessary), then post it. Using statements devoid of the "always required reasons why" is disrespect to adults who think like adults. Similar soundbyte is why so many adults who think like children believe Jenny McCarthy. Same logic also proved smoking cigarettes increases health. That Saddam had WMDs. And that extraordinary rendition of any non-Americans is good. Fox News said so. It also must be true.

Furthermore, since required details were not included, then I can also assume you said anything I want to believe. Just another reason why the housecleaning statement is best ignored by adults who think like adults. Otherwise we must have a pissing contest.

We know vaccines cause autism. Saddam still has WMDs. And that housecleaning is necessary. Because soundbytes order us what to believe - also called brainwashing. Please do not use such soundbyte logic to insult adults who think like adults.

Jenny McCarthy lied as we should expect of an adult who thinks like a child. Those housecleaning accusations are unfounded as also proven by the missing 'always required reasons why'.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2015, 11:04 PM   #37
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 20,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
Why did a majority of Americans know smoking increases health? Same concept.
Because (paid) doctors and dozens of (questionably funded) published peer-reviewed studies said so.

Stick with the WMD parallels, tw, because smoking is really not the example you want to use here. It is THE prime example of the medical establishment overtly failing the public for decades, before finally admitting that nicotine is addictive, smoking causes cancer, and dozens of sound, rigorous, impartial, medical studies had been faked.
Clodfobble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2015, 11:09 PM   #38
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble View Post
You should google "CDC whistleblower," tw.
I did just that.
Quote:
Did collected data actually prove that the MMR vaccine produces a 340% increased risk of autism in African-American boys? The answer is no, it did not.
So I should wait for a Congressional investigation by a Science Committee chairman who is a wacko extremist, a religious extremist, and who has publically stated he is not a scientist and does not know how to be one? I should wait for that Kangaroo court and believe Clodfobble's statement that is devoid of any supporting facts and numbers? Hardly. Otherwise I too would have so hated the American soldier as to believe Saddam had WMDs. Know that Airborne cures the common cold. And that childhood leukemia is created by electrical fields.

I did what Clodfobble suggested. Resulting fact said Clodfobble lied.

Clodfobble did as Jenny McCarthy also did. Make statements devoid of any supporting facts and numbers. Junk science reasoning is alive and well. No wonder so many know MMR causes autism because a stripper said so. It must be true because she has big hair, big boobs, and no education.

These lies and myths do not occur in a vacuum. Each is invented by emotions that prove it is true. Same logic also proved communists were hiding out in the State Department and US Army. We know that was true because we were told it was true. Adults who think like children never provide the 'always required reasons why'.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2015, 11:15 PM   #39
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 20,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
I did what Clodfobble suggested. Resulting fact said Clodfobble lied.
You... should not have googled it? I am truly a master of deception.
Clodfobble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2015, 04:45 AM   #40
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,964
Quote:
If housecleaning is necessary, then posted are specific facts that define that housecleaning and where. With the all so important reasons why.
I have neither the time nor inclination to gather up evidence for a fairly broad point about the ways in which the scientific communities have helped to create a culture of suspicion or unease about medical testing and medical products.

This though sets out some of the problem:

__________________
Quote:
There's only so much punishment a man can take in pursuit of punani. - Sundae
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2015, 04:57 AM   #41
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,964
Oh and a really interesting follow up to that:

__________________
Quote:
There's only so much punishment a man can take in pursuit of punani. - Sundae
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2015, 06:32 AM   #42
Griff
still says videotape
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 26,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamplighter View Post
Likewise, some cases of "ASD" may or may not be an autoimmune disease,
and in some situations, a child with existing autoimmune disease
truly should not be given a vaccination. But that is a contradictory argument
to whether a given vaccine "caused" the autoimmune disease in an otherwise healthy child.
I don't want to put words in her mouth but I believe Clod's current take on this is that Autism may be an autoimmune disease caused by other factors. The vaccinations could be the trigger for the immune response which exacerbates the symptoms but are not the cause of the autism.
__________________
If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Griff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2015, 09:58 AM   #43
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
I have neither the time nor inclination to gather up evidence for a fairly broad point about the ways in which the scientific communities have helped to create a culture of suspicion or unease about medical testing and medical products.
With a previously missing detail, I am reading something completely different. Now you are saying the scientific community has not presented facts accurately.

What science has done is not the problem. But so many people need things presented in a politically correct manner. Wakefield lied. Then science did what science always does. It exposed his lies. But what does an adult child named Jenny McCarthy (and others) still do? Continue to promote lies exposed by science.

Being an enemy of mankind, scumbag bitch can only believe the first thing she is told. She is a child; she cannot admit the scam. A scam was not created by science. A scam created because so many children would promote harm by even hiding the science. Those others only do what business schools teach.

You should be attacking wacko extremists who openly encourage fraud such as ginko biloba. A fraud that exists because fraud is legal. They need not report what is being provided. Most ginko biloba only contains rice, beans, and pieces of house plants. Science did not create this fraud. Science exposed it. It exists due to contempt for science. Adults who corrupt - who claim the purpose of a business is only profits - create this problem. As if black tea is another miracle drug.

The science community is not guilty. Business school graduates run many drug companies. Wacko extremists in government now make it legal or acceptable to hide science facts even from doctors. And then to keep drug prices 40% higher - to further enrich those liars. Since that gets bigger campaign contributions. Government even protects a scam called ginko biloba.

Why did they blame Paterno for pedophilia? Investigation was by someone who previously destroyed data on Vioxx. Science proved Vioxx caused strokes and other problems. Was Frazer disbarred for legal misconduct (perverting the discovery process - hiding the science)? No. He was given the presidency of Merck - the drug company whose purpose is now profits - not better drugs. Then Frazer was the head investigator for Penn States BoDs ... who did no investigation and blamed Paterno. Had he used science principles, he would have never made such conclusions. But he gets promoted by deception, lies, and manipulating adults who are still children.

Science community did not lie. Management educated in corruption (what is taught to business school graduates) creates your problem. Why do you blame science for what is taught in business schools? They created a bogeyman so that you would not blame bean counter management. They have you blaming their bogeyman for corruption. They have successfully scammed you. Even your own citation does not blame science. It blames corruption that keeps doctors from learning the science.

The science is accurate and honest. But scumbags such as Jenny McCarthy, Frazer, Wakefield, and even Carly Fiorina successfully play you for a fool. They have you blaming innocent science and not corrupt business school graduates.

Meanwhile science says MMR does not create autism. Only lovers of the scumbags believe lies created in the tradition of business school graduates: purpose of a business is only your profits - others be damned. Making the ginko biloba scam even legal. Even Wakefield lied to do what is taught in business schools - profits - the product and public be damned. Why do you blame science for what is taught in business schools?

Last edited by tw; 02-11-2015 at 10:13 AM.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2015, 10:09 AM   #44
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff View Post
I don't want to put words in her mouth but I believe Clod's current take on this is that Autism may be an autoimmune disease caused by other factors.
Had the 'always required reasons why' been provided, then that 'take on this' would have been obvious. Unfortunately, only a soundbyte was posted. So your 'take' can only be speculation.
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2015, 10:32 AM   #45
glatt
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 27,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by tw View Post
Unfortunately, only a soundbyte was posted. So your 'take' can only be speculation.
She's been posting about this for 8+ years. That's how Griff was able to get so much out of that "soundbyte." If you joined the community here, you might understand better what people are talking about.
glatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:25 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.