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Old 12-28-2007, 12:02 PM   #1
lookout123
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Alternate Universe

I recently witnessed two Arsenal fans arguing over the manager's "obvious mistakes" in a recent game. They went on and on about how if he had done X or Y we would have won. That got me to thinking a little bit, first in the context of football. Sure, he could have substituted this attacking player sooner to give the team more of an edge, but that doesn't necessarily mean a win is inevitable does it? The other team would make choices and changes as well to deal with the new situation, they wouldn't just keep doing what they did before would they? So making X change wouldn't necessarily produce the desired result in all instances right?

So being me I took that line of thought into politics and world events which inevitably led me back to the cellar. The Cellar is a swirling cauldron of intelligence, experience, common and not so common sense with 200% of the daily recommended allowance of opinion thrown in to boot.

So put your thinking cap on and travel through time and space to an alternate universe. Al Gore and our beloved GWB are locked in a friendly round of legal wrangling to decide who will sit in the awful office. The supreme court has returned their decision and to everyone's surprise they've decided Al and George are too inept for the job. They've named you as the next President of the United States.

You are the President. You make the decisions. You set the course. Assuming that the same basic historical events are in place in the alternate universe - what do you do? Remember we're sitting here with hindsight which isn't quite at 20-20 yet, but we're approaching 40-20.

How do you respond to the recession that is beginning as you take office?

What is your military and defense policy in general?

How do you respond when the Chinese are holding your AWACS flight crew in captivity?

How do you respond when planes crash into the WTC?

How do you respond when envelopes with white powder start showing up and killing people?

What do you do when you receive intelligence that Iraq has continued working on WMD?

Remember that each of your actions has a consequence, intended or not. Remember that the other players in the drama may or may not respond exactly how you'd like them to.

How would you have done things differently?
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Old 12-28-2007, 12:34 PM   #2
piercehawkeye45
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I'm not going to go much in depth since I was very young when these happened but from I've learned about leadership in and out of politics is that you can not know everything and you better start learning to take advice from multiple experts in the particular field you are working with.

Iraq for example, from what I remember, I did not see much debate on what would happen when we did invade Iraq. We did not challenge the assumption that Iraqis would accept Western democracy with open arms and that turned out to be our biggest mistake. That is something that could have been easily prevented and should have been looked at more and hence my leading argument against Bush for this conflict.

This "action based on unbacked assumptions" is one of the biggest flaws I see in this administration when not going into depth and talking about foreign policy and it is something that should be valued as a leader by questioning every assumption to make sure that the generalization can hold. My other big flaw I saw is the "you are with us or against us attitude". We had most of the world at our knees, even Iran, after 9/11 but we blew it by pushing other countries to do what they did not want to do and ostracizing others.

I can't really say on the rest because I feel I was too young to remember what was actually happening but that is my two cents.
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Old 12-28-2007, 12:38 PM   #3
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Quote:
How do you respond to the recession that is beginning as you take office?
I could never imagine that I would know more about such things than the economists, so I email the Chairman of the Federal Reserve and ask him/her what to do.

Quote:
What is your military and defense policy in general?
I could never imagine that I would know more about such things than military and defense leaders, so I email my Secy of Defense and Head of the Joint Chiefs and ask them what to do.

Quote:
How do you respond when the Chinese are holding your AWACS flight crew in captivity?
I could never imagine that I would know more about diplomacy than expert diplomats, so I email my Secretary of State and ask him/her what to do.

etc.
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Old 12-28-2007, 01:10 PM   #4
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When you say "other players in the drama", I assume you do not mean Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. unless we so choose to involve them?
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Old 12-28-2007, 01:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
I could never imagine that I would know more about such things than military and defense leaders, so I email my Secy of Defense and Head of the Joint Chiefs and ask them what to do.

I could never imagine that I would know more about diplomacy than expert diplomats, so I email my Secretary of State and ask him/her what to do.

etc.
So, who do you appoint to those slots? Friends/cronies or experts?
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Old 12-28-2007, 02:15 PM   #6
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you are the president. you set the course. if we stand here now and blame Bush/Clinton/Bush/Reagan for doing XYZ then we as the "current president" must accept the same responsibility. of course you have advisors. your beliefs and agenda guide you in naming those advisors so their agenda will most likely be similar to yours.

Now lead your nation.
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Old 12-28-2007, 02:16 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewbaccus View Post
When you say "other players in the drama", I assume you do not mean Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. unless we so choose to involve them?

I wasn't really referring to your advisors as much as the outside players. You can hire and fire your advisors so you have the ability to dictate their actions. You don't have that ability with other world leaders.
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Old 12-28-2007, 02:40 PM   #8
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1-Put UG in charge of the military.
2-Put Radar in charge of State.
3-Order a large box of popcorn.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:14 PM   #9
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I'd annex the Sudetenland and sign a non-aggression pact with Russia.
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Old 12-29-2007, 01:33 AM   #10
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Incidentally, it looks like Spexx is working on embracing his inner meanie.

Our foreign-policy problems (not the inconveniences we get from some other democracies but the real problems) stem from the nondemocracies. We want the problems to go away? Really? Okay then, we remove the nondemocracies and replace them with democracies. Dead tyrants fertilize the gardens of democracy superbly, for we have the example of their sort of misgovernance in mind.

Remove 'em by chicanery, war, revolution, or economics -- no particular order, and who cares anyway, as long as they disappear? -- with tyranny out of the picture and secure property rights and security in their persons in it, nothing can stop a people from prospering.
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Old 12-29-2007, 01:56 AM   #11
piercehawkeye45
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UG, what if the people do not want a democracy?
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Old 12-29-2007, 06:04 AM   #12
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Pierce, darling, if you weren't such a fascist sympathizing holder of a summer's-day IQ, I wouldn't have to dismiss your discreditable argument -- that a people wouldn't want democracy in view of everything else that's out there on view -- as airily and persistently as I do. It seems some mental block with you: you have for some time shown a willingness to bow before the opinion that is essentially that of oppressive, repressive minorities. But I do not bow before the opinions of fascists/communists/objectionable-ists. You lose that mental block, that undue willingness to sympathize with those not deserving the least sympathy, and a new light will dawn right there in your frontal lobes. The enlightenment is this: smart people want liberty. Villains don't. The smart people should neutralize the villains, and it wouldn't be any too wrong to reduce the villains to holes full of smoke before they can implement their programs of oppression. Undemocracy makes oppression convenient, and oppression may have the working definition of "not having democracy."

IOW, you'll get to enjoy enlightenment instead of walking in fascistocommunist darkness, foolishness, and misery. I haven't met a smart fascist sympathizer yet. And the dumb thing you're doing is in essence trusting official opinion polls from despotisms. Is it true that you'd rather be persuaded that less-than-democracy is good enough for those foreigners out there, than that they might perhaps do as well as we do by doing it generally as we do? Look to the immigration situation for refutation of that idea.

Nondemocracy creates poverty -- is this even open to dispute? People, given a choice, leave nondemocracy and its poverty and go to prosperous democracies, do they not?

Now is there any inherent sin or wrongness in democracy coming to them right where they're squatting?
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Last edited by Urbane Guerrilla; 12-29-2007 at 06:21 AM.
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Old 12-29-2007, 10:33 AM   #13
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And you have not seen that many Middle Eastern countries reject western democracy and want to set up their own government? Whether you accept it or not, many Muslims do want Islamic Law. Now I must ask the question again.

What if the people do not want western democracy?
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:44 AM   #14
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Then let them enjoy something they think is more eastern. I won't complain. Meanwhile, read up on your Thomas Friedman for some very cleareyed looking at the whole matter -- Longitudes & Attitudes.

Autocracy and nondemocracy are, and Friedman agrees with me here (more correctly the other way around, but in the end we're on one page) the exact center of the problem that all the Arab states suffer from, some of course more than others. A good many Arabs know this. A democracy with Islamic features included is still a democracy, and I don't have a problem with that.

Now tell me if there's anything inherently wrong with democracy coming to them right where they're squatting. I'm here to tell you there's no shame in admitting that it would likely be good if it happened.

I'm here to tell you that only the oppressive élites want anything but democracy -- after all, anyone will fight like a dog to gain or keep power.

And here's another question for you: why should such people's opinions be respected? I cannot think of one single solitary reason. I can think of unreasons -- and as a moral being I reject them utterly. Shouldn't these simply be wiped out instead, that democracy may flower without a lot of damned savage interference by the shitty of head? Dead oppressors cannot oppress.
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Old 01-01-2008, 11:16 AM   #15
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How do you respond to the recession that is beginning as you take office?
Deregulate where it makes sense. Let the recession happen since deferred recessions will probably hit harder.

What is your military and defense policy in general?

Bring home the troops. Focus on defense of American territory not 'interests" which look suspiciously like subsidies for individual players.

How do you respond when the Chinese are holding your AWACS flight crew in captivity?

Our surface ships and planes were not there.

How do you respond when planes crash into the WTC?

Hit the responsible people and organizations hard. Build on the international support that was immediately forth-coming.

How do you respond when envelopes with white powder start showing up and killing people?

Let the pros do their jobs.

What do you do when you receive intelligence that Iraq has continued working on WMD?

Don't cherry pick the intelligence to match my (obviously different)agenda.


The really hard question was the one you didn't ask. What do we do about Iraq? Clinton and Hussein worked pretty hard at destroying that country, what would moral policy be? I suppose I would have militarily supported the Kurdish move to independence as part of a coalition and lifted the embargo. The Kurds were already a distinct community struggling for independence. It would be up to the Shiites and Sunnis to settle their differences. The only justification for our continued presence was our hand in making the mess. The long view is energy independence and free trade with willing partners.
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