Why (some) GM products suck

Undertoad · 06-12-2009, 08:36 AM

The Truth About Cars: Why GM Interiors Suck

Paging tw.

Quote:

Agent X reveals one of the main reasons GM’s interiors failed to match the competition: the executives didn’t know there was a problem. Still don’t. And here’s why . . .

As you probably know, ever since GM was founded, its execs have either been driven by a chauffeur or provided with carefully prepared and maintained examples of the company’s most expensive vehicles. Of course, there are times when the suits must sign off on the company’s more prosaic products.

Since 1953, this intersection between high flyer and mass market occurred at GM’s Mesa, Arizona, Desert Proving Grounds (DPG). The execs would fly into Phoenix’s Sky Harbor airport, limo out to the DPG and drive the company’s latest models.

Our agent says that all the vehicles the execs drove were “ringers.” More specifically, the engineers would tweak the test vehicles to remove any hint of imperfection. “They use a rolling radius machine to choose the best tires, fix the headliner, tighten panel and interior gaps, remove shakes and rattles, repair bodywork—everything and anything.”

Did the execs know this? “Nope. And nobody was going to tell them . . . As far as they knew, the cars were exactly as they would be coming off the line. That’s why Bob Lutz thinks GM’s products are world-class. The ones he’s driven are.”

The American culture of entitlement for top executives is the downfall of their companies. Do they eat lunch in the same cafeteria as their workers, so they can hear some everyday concerns? Of course not, they have special catering and dine with their fellow privileged class. Do they drive the dogshit cars they produce? Of course not, they have limo drivers and private jets. Can they understand the impacts of the decisions they make? No, they never even see them.

Can this culture be changed?

Shawnee123 · 06-12-2009, 08:48 AM

This culture of greed and out of proportion 'need' is certainly part of our downfall. How, though, can that ever be changed, if we just keep on with the status quo?

Beestie · 06-12-2009, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Can this culture be changed?

Can it be changed? Of course it can. Just as soon as those who benefit from it voluntarily relinquish it.

On three, inhale. 1... 2... 3...

Hold it...

Hold it...

Keep holding, we'll get back to you...

Shawnee123 · 06-12-2009, 08:55 AM

It's a foreign concept to me, because I just don't see the benefit. Private jets, chauffeurs, blah blah blah...who cares? Who wants? I sure don't. I can't see that lifestyle making me happy...I wonder what the draw is? I mean, I know I'm weird but I really have no desire to be in that position.

TheMercenary · 06-12-2009, 09:19 AM

[quote=Undertoad;573324Can this culture be changed?[/QUOTE]Hmmmmm? I wonder. It will be hard. I think other industries have made an attempt to connect with their workers. But mostly I think that is in the IT industry, Google and Microsoft seem to be in tune. The auto industry is a different animal. A hold over of the way things are done since the days of the RR barrons. It is going to take some serious changes. Same for healthcare.

classicman · 06-12-2009, 09:23 AM

That looks like a lot of CYA on the part of those engineers. They appear to be deceptive types. Can you imagine? Engineers lying?

TheMercenary · 06-12-2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

That looks like a lot of CYA on the part of those engineers. They appear to be deceptive types. Can you imagine? Engineers lying?

slang · 06-14-2009, 07:47 AM

There was a program in effect at GM years ago that allowed managers within engineering/design/production to drive new GM vehicles as their own for 3 months at a time at no cost.

Every 3 months that manager would take a vehicle from production and see what the final product was like for the customer. Management would be able to see the results from their decisions from each respective department.

In theory, this would give them the opportunity to evaluate how they performed and see any imperfections that would appear in the first few months of a vehicles use.

I believe this was called the PEP Program. The managers would drive the cars for a few months and then the employees had the chance to buy them at substancial discount. In some cases 18% off msrp.

Having worked a short time within the GM world, it seems possible that the top brass would not have a clue as to the aesthetic or mechanical quirks the newly assembled models may have. They don't drive them.

It seems less possible that the middle managers would be completely unaware of model specific errors or quirks becuase they were constantly driving them.

Driving them and being aware of problem issues is also quite different from changing the internal process or systems to solve the problems.

IMO GM is too big, too arrogant and has too many chiefs ( not enough Indians ) to make any significant increase in the quality of the cars while lowering the prices, despite the honest efforts of thousands of committed employees.

GM gone broke? It's about time. Maybe they can re-org to something better.

dar512 · 06-15-2009, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slang

Maybe they can re-org to something better.

Maybe. But it is very difficult to change a culture.

classicman · 06-15-2009, 08:36 AM

As proven by our politicians.

Shawnee123 · 06-15-2009, 10:55 AM

What do you guys think about Saturn?

My brother tells me that at Saturn, the price is the price. They don't try to haggle and pull one over on you (which is what happened with the dude from the Honda dealership, at which point I figured there are other cars so if you treat me like I'm an idiot you've lost a sale. I may be a bit naive about the car buying process but I'm not stupid. Boy he made me mad.)

I looked around and I like the Astra.

Anyone with opinions on these cars?

glatt · 06-15-2009, 11:09 AM

Saturns aren't as good as Hondas, IMHO, but they are OK. When I was shopping for our current car, I looked at the Saturns, and Consumer Reports didn't like them very much.

Shawnee123 · 06-15-2009, 11:14 AM

Nothing is as good as a Honda.

I don't know what to do.

glatt · 06-15-2009, 11:16 AM

Let me add to that that I quickly looked at the Astra, and it looks like it's a re-badged Opel, perhaps not actually built by Saturn. Which could be a good thing.

Quickly looking around, I couldn't see if it was built in Germany or the US.

classicman · 06-15-2009, 11:21 AM

Look at a Honda, Nissan or Toyota.

06-12-2009, 08:48 AM	#2
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	This culture of greed and out of proportion 'need' is certainly part of our downfall. How, though, can that ever be changed, if we just keep on with the status quo? __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

06-12-2009, 08:55 AM	#4
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	It's a foreign concept to me, because I just don't see the benefit. Private jets, chauffeurs, blah blah blah...who cares? Who wants? I sure don't. I can't see that lifestyle making me happy...I wonder what the draw is? I mean, I know I'm weird but I really have no desire to be in that position. __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

06-12-2009, 09:19 AM	#5
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	[quote=Undertoad;573324Can this culture be changed?[/QUOTE]Hmmmmm? I wonder. It will be hard. I think other industries have made an attempt to connect with their workers. But mostly I think that is in the IT industry, Google and Microsoft seem to be in tune. The auto industry is a different animal. A hold over of the way things are done since the days of the RR barrons. It is going to take some serious changes. Same for healthcare. __________________ Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012!

06-12-2009, 09:23 AM	#6
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	That looks like a lot of CYA on the part of those engineers. They appear to be deceptive types. Can you imagine? Engineers lying? __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

06-15-2009, 08:36 AM	#10
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	As proven by our politicians. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

06-14-2009, 07:47 AM	#8
slang St Petersburg, Florida Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,423	There was a program in effect at GM years ago that allowed managers within engineering/design/production to drive new GM vehicles as their own for 3 months at a time at no cost. Every 3 months that manager would take a vehicle from production and see what the final product was like for the customer. Management would be able to see the results from their decisions from each respective department. In theory, this would give them the opportunity to evaluate how they performed and see any imperfections that would appear in the first few months of a vehicles use. I believe this was called the PEP Program. The managers would drive the cars for a few months and then the employees had the chance to buy them at substancial discount. In some cases 18% off msrp. Having worked a short time within the GM world, it seems possible that the top brass would not have a clue as to the aesthetic or mechanical quirks the newly assembled models may have. They don't drive them. It seems less possible that the middle managers would be completely unaware of model specific errors or quirks becuase they were constantly driving them. Driving them and being aware of problem issues is also quite different from changing the internal process or systems to solve the problems. IMO GM is too big, too arrogant and has too many chiefs ( not enough Indians ) to make any significant increase in the quality of the cars while lowering the prices, despite the honest efforts of thousands of committed employees. GM gone broke? It's about time. Maybe they can re-org to something better.

06-15-2009, 10:55 AM	#11
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	What do you guys think about Saturn? My brother tells me that at Saturn, the price is the price. They don't try to haggle and pull one over on you (which is what happened with the dude from the Honda dealership, at which point I figured there are other cars so if you treat me like I'm an idiot you've lost a sale. I may be a bit naive about the car buying process but I'm not stupid. Boy he made me mad.) I looked around and I like the Astra. Anyone with opinions on these cars? __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

06-15-2009, 11:09 AM	#12
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	Saturns aren't as good as Hondas, IMHO, but they are OK. When I was shopping for our current car, I looked at the Saturns, and Consumer Reports didn't like them very much.

06-15-2009, 11:14 AM	#13
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	Nothing is as good as a Honda. I don't know what to do. __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

06-15-2009, 11:16 AM	#14
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	Let me add to that that I quickly looked at the Astra, and it looks like it's a re-badged Opel, perhaps not actually built by Saturn. Which could be a good thing. Quickly looking around, I couldn't see if it was built in Germany or the US.

06-15-2009, 11:21 AM	#15
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	Look at a Honda, Nissan or Toyota. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

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