What would you do?

hot_pastrami · 01-08-2004, 01:11 PM

I am having a moral dilemma, so I am consulting the moral-o-matic.

Due to money concerns, I sold my beloved car just before Christmas. The fellow who bought it flew from his home in Kansas to Salt Lake City, then drove the car home. When he got home, he sent me an e-mail to let me know that he loved the car, that it ran great, and left me positive feedback on eBay. All was well.

In the auction, I had mentioned that the car had a supercharger-induced ping problem (detonation at high RPMs), and when speaking to him, I told him that the car should be driven very delicately until the problem is resolved, and suggested some possible rememdies which I had not yet tried. He got the car for a bargain due to this problem, and the bill of sale was very clear in stating that car is sold AS IS, with no warranty.

Well, several days later, he e-mailed me and told me that there's a problem... turns out he blew a hole in one of the cylinders, and now he may have some costly repairs in store for him. He didn't say so, but I suspect he redlined it a few times despite my warnings, because otherwise this kind of damage is unlikely. He's not asking for his money back, and he's not asking for help in paying for repairs... what he wants is for me to lie to help him.

I guess eBay automatically warranties every car sold through eBay Motors for the first 1000 miles. He had clocked well over 1000 miles by the time the cylinder blew, so he wants me to send a fax to the warranty place stating that the car's milage at the time of sale was much higher than it really was, by about 1000 miles. Besides the fact that I'm uneasy with lying in any capacity, there's also the legal aspect... the eBay listing, Odometer Disclosure Statement, and car title all show the correct milage, and he wants me to put my name to a document saying that the milage was higher. If I were to help him, and in the unlikely event that the lie were discovered, I could be barred from eBay, charged with perjury, fined, and possibly jailed. But the risk is low, and in doing it I could save him $5000-$7000 worth of engine work.

I am torn. I want to help him, but not at my own expense, especially because it looks like a problem he caused by irresponsibly acting against my advice. Of course, maybe it just happened on it's own, and I sold him a car on the verge of a blowout. Either way, he knew the risk, but I hate to abandon him under the circumstances. What do you guys think?

Edit: By the way, he isn't even sure the warranty place will cover the problem even if I were to send the fax, he's just hoping they will. But the supercharger may void the warranty entirely.

wolf · 01-08-2004, 01:22 PM

Don't lie.

There is plenty of documentation to establish the truth.

You sold the vehicle as-is.

He was aware of this.

You even advised him as to potential problems with the vehicle and he still went ahead with the sale.

Stand fast, HP. Don't compromise your principles, even a little one, particularly for some stranger that you will likely only see again in small claims court. (assuming he bothers to try ... you still have the as-is sale on your side, AND providing any false documentation FOR him will damage your potential case.)

Beestie · 01-08-2004, 01:45 PM

You would get into so much trouble for doing this. And, I figure the likelihood of getting caught is between 99.9874% and 99.9937%.

There is no dilemma, btw. At least I don't see it.

You want to fax him something? Fax your respectful condolences.

blue · 01-08-2004, 02:16 PM

And don't forget you have now posted the REAL story on the INTERNET.

Your choice is now simple.

You're welcome.

hot_pastrami · 01-08-2004, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beestie
There is no dilemma, btw. At least I don't see it.

My dilemma is in that he's a damn nice guy, who is acting decently. To say no to his request, which is the only way I can help him, is like telling him to go to hell, that it's his problem.

I was already planning to tell him No as nicely as I could, but I want to make sure that's the right thing to do.

Michael Roth · 01-08-2004, 02:53 PM

Aesops Fables:

"There is no believing a liar, even when he speaks the truth."

dar512 · 01-08-2004, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hot_pastrami

My dilemma is in that he's a damn nice guy, who is acting decently.

No, he's not. At least not in this case. The fact that he is attempting to defraud a corporation and not an individual doesn't make it any nicer.

FileNotFound · 01-08-2004, 04:07 PM

And I get the 1 vote for the fax! Yay.

Send a fax from any Kinkos etc. Do not sign.

If the shit hits the fan deny knowledge of the document. DO NOT send him ANY written corespondance saying that you will do this. Call him on a phone and tell him. Can't bring up phone calls in court except that they were 'made'. Of course you can say you called to say "So sad. Too bad. Poor lad."

There must be no proof that you sent it, but it will probably be enough for the insurance company to not bother with it. If there is strong proof required of you sending the fax, forget it. If joe bloe can send the same document as you, I'd say go for it.

But then I'm the least moral member of these boars according to "The Test" with a big ball of hate for insurance companies.

hot_pastrami · 01-08-2004, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FileNotFound
Send a fax from any Kinkos etc. Do not sign.

Well, the comments of others have reinforced my decision to deny the request, to the point that I'm completely decided now... I just needed to make sure I wasn't being an ass rather than doing the decent thing.

Sending the fax from a Utah Kinkos could be construed as circumstantial evidence, which carries some weight, especially in arbitration and whatnot. And there's the chance that an employee would recognize me and could ID me later... I am a handsome devil after all. I know it sounds paranoid, but I have little doubt that the warranty company would pursue this aggressively if they thought they could win their $7000 back.

The sad truth is, the car was priced and bought well below it's book value to compensate for the risk that the ping was a bigger problem. He took the risk, and it didn't work out. Sad, but true.

BrianR · 01-08-2004, 07:44 PM

Yanno, it might be cheaper in the long run for this guy to just replace the engine block and be done with it. I mean, an engine, even one with that kind of performance is, what, $5000 for a long block? Cmon peeps!

Redo the engine, save a lot of headache and paperwork at the least and jail time at the worst. That's how *I* vote. Tell this guy NO in the nicest way you can. Explain your reasons if you must but Just Say No.

It worked for Nancy and it'll work for you too.

Brian

elSicomoro · 01-08-2004, 07:51 PM

You're a good guy, Alan, and I can understand why you feel bad about the situation. But you've done nothing wrong, legally or morally. What happened is unfortunate, but it's his problem now.

Now, did he actually ask you to fudge the numbers via e-mail? If he did, and he gives you any shit about not helping him out, you've got his ass in a sling.

juju · 01-09-2004, 01:15 AM

This is a good example of how we are a guilt-based society.

Riddil · 01-09-2004, 08:52 AM

Guilt based, sure. But we're also a social society. (I love being redundantly redundant). What I mean is that since we are social beings we have a natural desire to help our neighbors.

If the question is simply, "lie or don't lie", then your moral fiber tells you to tell the truth.

But there's also the social motivation. The reason people hate a liar is b/c they lie for self-gain, or for malicious intents. This is neither. It's a minor fabrication to help a fellow man... b/c if you didn't do it you know all the pain and hard work he'll have to go through to cover the expenses.

So I can understand why an honest person would still struggle with this one.

Anyhow, that being said, it may be tough, but why should someone else cover the costs for his fuckup? It sounds to me like this guy needs a to learn to accept the consequences of his actions, there won't always be someone there to bail him out. If his problem was no fault of his own, I'd say help him. But this? Tell him you hope he learned his lesson, have a nice day.

View Poll Results: What would you do under the circumstances?
Send the fax, help him out. The risk of getting caught is low, but you'll definitely be helping him out.	1	5.56%
He's on his own.	17	94.44%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

01-08-2004, 01:11 PM	#1
hot_pastrami I am meaty Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 1,119	What would you do? I am having a moral dilemma, so I am consulting the moral-o-matic. Due to money concerns, I sold my beloved car just before Christmas. The fellow who bought it flew from his home in Kansas to Salt Lake City, then drove the car home. When he got home, he sent me an e-mail to let me know that he loved the car, that it ran great, and left me positive feedback on eBay. All was well. In the auction, I had mentioned that the car had a supercharger-induced ping problem (detonation at high RPMs), and when speaking to him, I told him that the car should be driven very delicately until the problem is resolved, and suggested some possible rememdies which I had not yet tried. He got the car for a bargain due to this problem, and the bill of sale was very clear in stating that car is sold AS IS, with no warranty. Well, several days later, he e-mailed me and told me that there's a problem... turns out he blew a hole in one of the cylinders, and now he may have some costly repairs in store for him. He didn't say so, but I suspect he redlined it a few times despite my warnings, because otherwise this kind of damage is unlikely. He's not asking for his money back, and he's not asking for help in paying for repairs... what he wants is for me to lie to help him. I guess eBay automatically warranties every car sold through eBay Motors for the first 1000 miles. He had clocked well over 1000 miles by the time the cylinder blew, so he wants me to send a fax to the warranty place stating that the car's milage at the time of sale was much higher than it really was, by about 1000 miles. Besides the fact that I'm uneasy with lying in any capacity, there's also the legal aspect... the eBay listing, Odometer Disclosure Statement, and car title all show the correct milage, and he wants me to put my name to a document saying that the milage was higher. If I were to help him, and in the unlikely event that the lie were discovered, I could be barred from eBay, charged with perjury, fined, and possibly jailed. But the risk is low, and in doing it I could save him $5000-$7000 worth of engine work. I am torn. I want to help him, but not at my own expense, especially because it looks like a problem he caused by irresponsibly acting against my advice. Of course, maybe it just happened on it's own, and I sold him a car on the verge of a blowout. Either way, he knew the risk, but I hate to abandon him under the circumstances. What do you guys think? Edit: By the way, he isn't even sure the warranty place will cover the problem even if I were to send the fax, he's just hoping they will. But the supercharger may void the warranty entirely. __________________ Hot Pastrami! Last edited by hot_pastrami; 01-08-2004 at 01:14 PM.

01-08-2004, 01:22 PM	#2
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Don't lie. There is plenty of documentation to establish the truth. You sold the vehicle as-is. He was aware of this. You even advised him as to potential problems with the vehicle and he still went ahead with the sale. Stand fast, HP. Don't compromise your principles, even a little one, particularly for some stranger that you will likely only see again in small claims court. (assuming he bothers to try ... you still have the as-is sale on your side, AND providing any false documentation FOR him will damage your potential case.) __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

01-08-2004, 01:45 PM	#3
Beestie -◊\|≡·∙■·∙≡\|◊- Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Parts unknown. Posts: 4,081	You would get into so much trouble for doing this. And, I figure the likelihood of getting caught is between 99.9874% and 99.9937%. There is no dilemma, btw. At least I don't see it. You want to fax him something? Fax your respectful condolences. __________________ ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦

01-08-2004, 02:16 PM	#4
blue Operations Operative Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Northern WI Posts: 739	And don't forget you have now posted the REAL story on the INTERNET. Your choice is now simple. You're welcome. __________________ If you spot a tornado, always remember to point at it, yell "tornado!", and run like hell.

01-08-2004, 02:53 PM	#6
Michael Roth Minister of Lurking Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: calgary Posts: 64	Aesops Fables: "There is no believing a liar, even when he speaks the truth." __________________ "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "We are all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat. "Or else you wouldn't have come here."

01-08-2004, 04:07 PM	#8
FileNotFound Intouch with his inner sheep rider. Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 603	And I get the 1 vote for the fax! Yay. Send a fax from any Kinkos etc. Do not sign. If the shit hits the fan deny knowledge of the document. DO NOT send him ANY written corespondance saying that you will do this. Call him on a phone and tell him. Can't bring up phone calls in court except that they were 'made'. Of course you can say you called to say "So sad. Too bad. Poor lad." There must be no proof that you sent it, but it will probably be enough for the insurance company to not bother with it. If there is strong proof required of you sending the fax, forget it. If joe bloe can send the same document as you, I'd say go for it. But then I'm the least moral member of these boars according to "The Test" with a big ball of hate for insurance companies. __________________ This is a rat. \|This is a hamster.\| This is a chipmunk.\| This is a Sheep Rider.

01-08-2004, 07:44 PM	#10
BrianR Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,338	Yanno, it might be cheaper in the long run for this guy to just replace the engine block and be done with it. I mean, an engine, even one with that kind of performance is, what, $5000 for a long block? Cmon peeps! Redo the engine, save a lot of headache and paperwork at the least and jail time at the worst. That's how I vote. Tell this guy NO in the nicest way you can. Explain your reasons if you must but Just Say No. It worked for Nancy and it'll work for you too. Brian __________________ Never be afraid to tell the world who you are. -- Anonymous

01-08-2004, 07:51 PM	#11
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	You're a good guy, Alan, and I can understand why you feel bad about the situation. But you've done nothing wrong, legally or morally. What happened is unfortunate, but it's his problem now. Now, did he actually ask you to fudge the numbers via e-mail? If he did, and he gives you any shit about not helping him out, you've got his ass in a sling.

01-09-2004, 01:15 AM	#12
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	This is a good example of how we are a guilt-based society.

01-09-2004, 08:52 AM	#13
Riddil Management Consultant Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 165	Guilt based, sure. But we're also a social society. (I love being redundantly redundant). What I mean is that since we are social beings we have a natural desire to help our neighbors. If the question is simply, "lie or don't lie", then your moral fiber tells you to tell the truth. But there's also the social motivation. The reason people hate a liar is b/c they lie for self-gain, or for malicious intents. This is neither. It's a minor fabrication to help a fellow man... b/c if you didn't do it you know all the pain and hard work he'll have to go through to cover the expenses. So I can understand why an honest person would still struggle with this one. Anyhow, that being said, it may be tough, but why should someone else cover the costs for his fuckup? It sounds to me like this guy needs a to learn to accept the consequences of his actions, there won't always be someone there to bail him out. If his problem was no fault of his own, I'd say help him. But this? Tell him you hope he learned his lesson, have a nice day.

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