The Cellar - Thank you, America!

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- - Thank you, America! (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=12349)

Engineer does raise a point: I've heard elsewhere that absent petroleum production, the rest of the total GNP of all the nations of Araby summed together compares with the GNP... of Holland. Patents applied for? -- few.

Seems like they could at least be into banking, but when you look hard into that you find some Arabs tied in knots of business inefficiency over the issue of interest.

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The only reason that part of the world has any power at all is because they lucked out in sitting on the worlds largest supply of oil, how long do you think their 'modern' societies would last if the oil ran out?

Probably about as long as our 'modern society' would last if our economy and industry vanished. Civilisation is as thin a veneer here as it is there, the beast just feels further away.

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I'm not sure if they can uphold our values of freedom myself, just watch the bloodbath when we pull out.

I wonder if that bloodbath will kill more, or less, than the half a million+ deaths that we've caused? Also, the clue is in your definition of freedom as 'ours'. Why would they wish to uphold 'our' values?

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The Arab world is still stuck in the feudal era, you can't reason with a primitive society on modern terms, they just go back to their stupid clan wars.

As opposed to our eminently sensible, and highly technological wars.

I'm thinking there may be something fundamentally debasing about an extraction economy. Folks don't learn to create when the easy money is in destruction.

In that case why are we in the West determinedly sending our manufacturing base to other countries?

Because Britons never never never shall be wage slaves.

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Originally Posted by Undertoad

Some Arabic countries grow some really fine coffee.

Is that what they mean when they say "arobatic coffee blend"?

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Originally Posted by Flint

*acrobatic

(aromatic)

Never mind....

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Originally Posted by DanaC

In what way is the Church having control of Welfare duties, Armed forces, legal dealings and high court, different from an Islamic state where their religious body governs legal and military aspects of life?

You take pride in being an American, yet you would change the most fundamental tenet of American existence (government by the people, for the people) and you denigrate Arabs as not 'deserving' freedom and somehow being incapable of democracy, yet you suggest you would like to see democracy replaced with theocracy.

You are one confused fellow. Ignore that comment about your being like UG. UG is consistent and coherent in his arguments.......blatantly wrong most of the time, but at least he makes sense.

I'm a Theocrat, I support a Theocratic state based on Judaic Christian law. Democracy is weak and when the mass of Americans are uneducated it simply does not work. Arabs can not function in a democracy because they have been ruled by kings for the pass thousand years, they do not understand the workings of democracy and it is not their culture. Also Saddam was very helpful in doubling the value of my French investments. I'm a proud American and would like to see America survive to see another day, with the weak people who inhabit this nation we can not allow a government by the people.

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Originally Posted by Hippikos

Well, send us your report as soon as you are in Eyerack and watch out for them Roadside Bombs.

BTW as for Iraqi insurgency, in war there's nothing such as pride or other Hollywood stuff. The only way to beat the Americans in Iraq is insurgency.

And the homefront being weak, perhaps it has something to do with all these lies and manipulation for a bloody war far outside US/UK homesoil, for what reason now the WMD's were a fairy story? Have you seen too many Rambo movies?

I know theres none of the Hollywood bullshit in the movies, I'm a Prussian, we know how to fight wars. You destroy every village, burn every farm, slaughter every animal, tear down everything they built, and only once the world has forgotten them and they are completely destroyed them in every way can you claim victory. Perhaps if we were united as the Arabs we wouldn't have the problem of needing a reason to secure our future.

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Originally Posted by tw

vonPrutz - learn history. For example, why did Americans massacre villagers in MyLai? Because they were so frustrated by having so many friends killed in ambushes and boobytraps; not able to fight an enemy that repeatedly 'disappeared'. Your Nam is not accurate.

It scares me when one so self assured knows Vietnam and Iraq are not same. The similarities are stunning. But then it explains how this current lying president could get naive Americans to fall for all those Vietnam 'deja vues'.

I guess you are still young. This is when young learn from experience and unnecessary casualties. A critical number being 'how many years beyond the age of 16 are you?'

Iraq is a perfect example of how easy a Vietnam mistake was made - complete with violations of basic military science AND a president who intentionally lies. Appreciate why a concept called ‘big dic’ is frequently found among those who ‘turn to the dark side’. The young are easily enticed by violent solutions.

Another lesson from Vietnam - the president will do anything necessary to not have that defeat on his watch. That part from history is repeating in Washington now. "Mission Accomplished" cannot be won. So who suffers the defeat? Do you see this ongoing Vietnam deja vue? Again, watch what is happening to appreciate more lessons from history. Many ‘big dics’ who preach support for the troops are actually those soldiers worst enemy. This president's actions will be firstmost for his legacy than for the advancement of America. Another deja vue from history.

“Mission Accomplished” war is identical to Vietnam complete with “light at the end of a tunnel” or “stay the course”. Different words; same lies.

In Vietnam, we had two choices – millions of troops deployed (as Westmoreland demanded), or complete withdrawal. We had those same choices in Iraq last year. Instead Nixon knew Nam could not be won, but massacred another 35,000 only so that Nam was not lost on his watch. Nixon ‘stayed the course’.

Nixon was so ignorant as to even go to China in some belief that Vietnam was really a proxy war against China. Today's president probably believes his lies about Iraq as a "war against world wide terrorism". Different details. Same lies.

How do we defeat an enemy when we cannot be honest enough to accurately define that enemy? Deja vue.

Ignorance meant we continued to waste men, material, and money on a war that America could never win. As in Iraq, Nam was created on lies, fought without a strategic objective, and therefore had no exit strategy. Years later, bills for that war would force America into recession and stagflation. This is when you learn lessons of history. We are reliving Vietnam because so many did not see the obvious four years ago.

And then we have the murder of Bobby Kennedy. Any hope of getting America out of a war (that was already lost) died with Bobby Kennedy. Hopefully we need not relive that part of Nam again.

Scary are those 'big dics' who refused to accept defeat in Vietnam and also advocated murder of students in Kent State. Hope we need not relive that lesson from history.

You get your facts from a book, I get mine from my Vietnam/Angolan veteran father. He served 3 tours in Vietnam and then an additional 2 in Angola after him and my mother moved to South Africa. We could have easily won the Vietnam war, all we had to do bomb the North's ports, fuck what the Soviets or Chinese say about losing their ships. Brinkmanship is the only reason we won the Cold War, it was Carter's arms reductions, it was Reagan telling the Soviets that America was already ahead and could spend more on military technology and weapons then the entire Soviet income. Anyway my point is that the Vietcong were a much fiercer enemy then the Jihadists, how many combat deaths have been from direct engagement? A few hundred. In Vietnam it was all direct engagement because they actually fought us.

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Originally Posted by vonPrutz

We could have easily won the Vietnam war, all we had to do bomb the North's ports, fuck what the Soviets or Chinese say about losing their ships.

Preaching a classic 'big dic' agenda of Gen Westmoreland is far from complimentary. Reality: every intelligence service - including those in the DoD - said no useful targets existed in Vietnam. But since a classic 'big dic' mentality took hold, then we bombed like no man had ever seen. World record bomb tonnage was dropped. 10% of this nation’s nuclear bomber force was lost. What did that accomplish? Exactly what every intelligence analysis said would happen. Nothing useful. Your myths about bombing restrictions ignores the fact that every possible military target was bombed.

Meanwhile, your knowledge is not inherited by genes from your father. Only combat that provides knowledge is combat you did yourself. Apparently you have zero combat experience. Again, you demonstrated the 'big dic' mentality where genetics somehow makes one an expert. Reasoning based on such logic is not just defective - it is scary. Too many of my peers were killed by such scary thinking.

In Vietnam, most direct and major engagements ending with Tet. In direct contradiction to your post, Vietnam’s patriots changed tactics to great effect (ie MyLai). They were winning because, in part, they stopped using direct engagements AND because they owned the battlefield after every battle. If your knowledge from genetic inheritance is significant, then you grasp the significance of that last sentence explicitly AND your reply starts with that sentence. Why is that sentence so significant?

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Probably about as long as our 'modern society' would last if our economy and industry vanished. Civilisation is as thin a veneer here as it is there, the beast just feels further away.

I see, so you are proposing that our economy and industry were already sitting here fully prepped when we settled the country? Building a strong economy and industry has nothing to do with finding huge oil deposits sitting under your feet.

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Very likely more, watch for the media embargo once the head severing starts though. Wouldn't want the American public to feel guilty:greenface

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I'm a Theocrat, I support a Theocratic state based on Judaic Christian law.

i'm one of those people that generally gets made fun of because i'm a bible believing christian. you know, salvation, mercy, grace, and the whole nine yards... that being said - ARE YOU FUCKING STUPID????

i wouldn't support a theocracy even if my own pastor was the leader. good man that he is, a theocracy is just plain wrong. UNLESS each and every single citizen of their own free will believes in the exact same theology then you are going to oppressing someone and that is perfectly counter to the idea of faith through free will that the christian faith is predicated upon.

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I'm a proud American and would like to see America survive to see another day, with the weak people who inhabit this nation we can not allow a government by the people.

You are a proud American, yet you denigrate Americans as weak and uneducated.

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Very likely more, watch for the media embargo once the head severing starts though. Wouldn't want the American public to feel guilty

Even if they go on a massive decapitation rampage, I seriously doubt they'll kill as many as we have with bombs.