And you know how the Dutch are . . .

We visited hubby's aunt and uncle. She's Swedish, he's Dutch. In their kitchen cupboard hubby found a mug that said "I Respect My Father." He thought that was very scary.

Until we visited a gift shop and saw a whole shelf of them.

In other words, I would not use the word "flexible" to describe them.

In a sense, they don't. They by their own religious law can only "get to know" half, or less than half of people that they might meet. Even associating with other women is under the control of their husbands (or fathers, if unmarried).

If they have any unsanctioned interaction, they face punishment from either their husbands or from the religious authority.

Punishment, under Shariah Law, is not pretty.

Well ok, I understand all the points you've all made, and they're all very fair, however, in reality - at least over here - the vast majority of Muslims I have met/known/interacted with on some level just don't fit the picture you're all trying to create.

Maybe the culture here is different. Maybe Australia is where the 'less hardline' Muslims come to in order to avoid persecution by others.

Australia is a long way from Europe. I would say that bad policies in other European countries (say, oh, Sweden) are a lot more influential to the Netherlands than to Australia. That's only a guess however.

That may be the case in strict islamic countries....it may even be the case in some families/sections of the moslem diaspora in Europe. It very much is not the case with most of the moslem woman i have met and interracted with. Now, granted the ones whom I have met and interracted with are, by dint of my interracting with them, not the ones who live in seclusion...and those who live in seclusion I obviously haven't interracted with. But, my primary experience of moslem women/girls, is of strong minded and highly political, well educated people who take an active role in their towns and cities. My university is full of them; Bradford university even more so. There's nothing shy or shrinking about these gals, I can tell you. I met quite a few of them through the Student Labour group and the anti-fascism coalition. I never had a problem interacting with them and more importantly neither did our male co-activists.

I used to be really, really anti-the veil. As a feminist the whole concept appalled me. After all, my only real knowledge of such things had come from the horror stories of the taliban enforced disenfranchisement of the women and girls in Afghanistan. Then two things happened to change my thinking somewhat: During the bringing in of laws outlawing the wearing of headscarfs, veils and other 'religious' symbols in French schools, I heard a french moslem woman interviewed on the radio. She was a staunch feminist and an educated, strong woman. She said "twenty years ago, i fought for my daughter's right, not to wear the veil.....now I am fighting for my daughter's right to wear the veil."

I think that sums up the changing nature of veil/burka wearing. Yes, twenty years ago, it was something that was imposed on women by a deeply patriarchal culture.....but whilst that may still be the case in some parts of the world, and amongst those immigrants arriving for the first time in the West, the majority of girls and women born in the West, who choose to wear it now, do so for their own reasons.To me, the decision to wear something which so visibly identifies one in terms that have become almost routinely hated and discriminated against in the West, to proudly declare a cultural heritage and identity, in the face of such hostility is a brave stance to take. It doesn't declare them as non-British(in the case of those living here), it declares them proudly Islamic. The two are not mutually exclusive.

The second thing that has changed my thinking is having several heated debates about the veil with feminist, veil and non-veil wearing moslem women. I ended up confronting my own prejudices. The arrogance that assumes these girls have no choices in life, and are fundamentally weak, merely because they exist in a different paradigm.

I saved a girl from an honor killing here. Her crime? Behaving like an American teenager. She was caught wearing pants and makeup. And talking to a boy. Very bad girl, she was. Got really good grades too.

I have also worked with an Islamic family whose very crazy daughter was hitched in an arranged marriage. They imported a guy from the old country who was wed to her sight-unseen. She now has two children she's too crazy to take care of, but that's what her blonde Main Line Muslim step mom's for.

Wearing veil or hijab are very different from wearing burka.

I have a hard time imagining a muslim woman wearing burka but being willing and open in talking to others, especially men.

Chastity of the person is part and parcel of wearing burka. I don't see muslim women having one without the other.

If they compromise on the chastity of the person, there is no reason to wear the burka.

Think in terms of a Catholic nun in habit. She wears the habit in public, so everyone knows her reglious stance. But if she were to have a sexual affair, in offense of her vows of chastity, then the wearing of her habit is going to make the offense all the worse in her own mind. She has to chose to be guilt ridden every time she puts on the habit or she has to chose to disassociate the act from the habit.

In the end, it is the same. Along with the wearing of the garb comes the whole philosophical and cultural aspects associated with it. I don't see having one without the other.

At my uni, there are girls wearing the full cover up. Just the eyes showing, through a small letterbox like slit in the headgear. Now, i don't know all of them, but I am on regular chit-chat terms with a couple of them and they don't seem to have a problem interracting with the rest of the university community.

Interesting. That is certainly not typical.

Makes me wonder how long before they throw the cover off. The cover is all about chastity, but if they are not having chastity of the eyes, then why continue to where it?

I wonder if this is part of their slowly moving away from the standards of their parents . . .

I wonder how the lecturers coped.

'Can anyone answer this question? Yes, you, miss..... hah, sorry, third burkah from the right...'

How did they know whose marks were whose? who did well in class and who didn't?

What do their passport photo's show? And their driving licences? And does my bomb look big in this?

Jay...my husband is a lecturer and has always spoken very highly of his muslim students and doesn't have problems identifying them...even the ones wearing traditional dress.

I'm sorry to hear about your husband.... for a while there, I had high hopes...

ah well, back to reallity.....


In truth, how does he cope? With 5 or 6, maybe more, burkhas before him, how on earth does he tell one from another?

It must surely be like the old chinese thing.... they all look alike to me. only in spades!

Well, I'll have to ask him how he tells them apart, but I suspect it's because even when people are dressed alike, you can tell them apart...if you care to take the time to get to know them.

My only concern about burkhas...

Dont they get FUCKING HOT, not to mention uncomfortable and claustrophobic?

but surely this comes round as the perfect circular arguement... the burkha is designed as a wall, the ultimate 'i don't want you to get to know me' ?