I apologize--I should have worded my post more carefully.
I take responsibility for the fact that its intent was unclear.

By the way, what "routine" means to me is something most like::::ƒucks into thread:::

Incorrect. There is enough evidence that thimerosal is dangerous that the CDC readily admits that babies under 6 months should not get the flu vaccine, or should get a non-thimerosal dose. I happen to disagree with where they've drawn the line, but they've drawn it. And other preservatives are not in any way "less effective;" what they are is more expensive. Then of course there are several delivery methods that don't require preservatives at all.

This is kind of like your argument awhile back (in another thread, I think) that dried fruits had to be coated in sulfur dioxide in order to prevent them from growing mold. It simply isn't true. I currently have 5 different bags of various dried fruits that are not preserved in any way. I can't tell you how long they'd last without growing mold, but I generally take at least a few months to finish them. But they are more expensive.

So do I. I wonder why they won't do double-blind studies with vaccinated and unvaccinated control groups?

It doesn't take education or background to determine whether a study exists. "Honestly assessing" risk does not involve sitting in their offices and pondering the idea.

I thought you preferred evidence? There were studies linked earlier in this thread that showed that a decline in the number of flu vaccinations did not lead to an increase in the number of flu infections or deaths. Your entire argument is predicated on the idea that the flu vaccine actually does anything to stop the flu, and the evidence shows it doesn't do that. Just like Gardasil doesn't lower the rate of cervical cancer.

Wikipedia: (bold mine of course)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thimerosal

Further detail: tl;dr: The ban was precautionary, not based on evidence of harm. Some of the considerations of harm were based on studies of the toxicology of methylmercury, even though the metabolite of Thimerosol is actually ethylmercury. Since the ban, ethylmercury has been found to be much less accumulative than methylmercury.

http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/PROFESSIONALS...tivenessqa.htm

http://cellar.org/2009/effectiveness.gif

It's confusing, because the effectiveness varies from year to year as scientists to get the exact strain for that year. So a study of effectiveness should take into account overall effectiveness, not the effectiveness of one year. Overall:

http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/diffdx/mercurysources.html

As a sidebar, interesting: things other than vaccines that are preserved with Thimerosol:

Antitoxins (! - UT)
Cosmetics, including makeup removers, mascara, and eye moisturizers
Desensitizing solutions
Ear, eye, and nose drops
Eye ointments
Mercurochrome®
Merthiolate topical antiseptic
Soap-free cleaners
Some contact lens solutions
Topical medicated sprays
Topical medications
Tuberculin tests

Other sources of mercury:

Adhesives
Air conditioner filters
Amalgams (silver fillings)
Auto exhaust
Batteries
Bleached flour
Calomel (talc, body powders)
Cinnabar (used in jewelry)
Drinking water (tap and well), plumbing and piping
Fabric softeners
Felt
Floor waxes and polishes
Laxatives
Paint pigments and solvents
Pesticides
Processed foods
Vegetables and fruits exposed to pesticides
Wood preservatives

Of course they called it a precautionary measure. Congress had already ordered them to do it, so they put up their hands and said, "Okay, if you insist." The book you ordered spent quite a few pages discussing studies on the relative dangers of both ethyl and methylmercury, why rely on Wikipedia?

Part of the problem with mercury specifically is that it doesn't just float around in the blood, it gets picked up and stored in various cells in the body. There have been several studies with autistic kids who were given blood tests that showed negligible levels of mercury; then they were given chelation drugs and they peed very high levels that were completely unpredicted by the blood tests. In fact, one big connection that's just started to be explored this year is the fact that fungus can hold up to 70% of its weight as mercury, and there is a theory that one reason most autistic kids end up with severe yeast infections is that the body is deliberately allowing the fungus to fluorish because it captures the mercury rather than letting it lodge in the brain and elsewhere. No idea if that theory will pan out, but it's being studied. The fact remains that blood tests are not a reliable indicator of the total amount of mercury stored in the body.

And you are correct, there are trace amounts of mercury in all of those things listed, or at least some brands of them. Of course, we're also not injecting pesticides, fabric softeners, or batteries directly into an infant's bloodstream. And for older children who, for some reason, have demonstrably had their metabolic processes broken, relative lifetime exposure to those products has been directly correlated to the amount of mercury they pee out when given chelation drugs.

As has been mentioned time and again, these levels of heavy metals are apparently safe for the majority of the population, except for kids who for some reason can't seem to process them out. Until they can identify those newborns, or determine what is happening to them that breaks the cycle sometime in their infancy, they have no business using it as a preservative when there are other alternatives available.


As for your chart, you are correct, I misspoke: increasing vaccine rates (and well-matched vaccine strains) does reduce the overall number of infection cases. It does not reduce the overall number of deaths. So I will not take personal responsibility for hypothetically "quadrupling" the influenza death rate as you suggested.

Why did you leave this part out?

But here's some evidence

Cos we're not talking about thiomersal that's inhaled, ingested, and/or in contact with skin.

That's very strong. Fetuses should not be exposed to Thiomersal via the mother.

Do you still trust the health organization that specifically recommends pregnant women get the seasonal flu shot with thimerosal, even moreso than the regular population?

i met a man a couple weeks ago whose wife was paralyzed by a flu vaccine. he was a plumber. regular dude.....he and his daughter were buying a car, and the trade was in his wife's name.....i had to have the salesman go over to their house to get the title signed by her because she couldn't come to us easily. in 1999, she got a flu shot. the next day, she was in the hospital.

she's not dead, so i guess she doesnt appear either...

have you ever met anyone whose friend or relative died of the flu?

i haven't

Yes, that study is from this summer and requires additional confirming studies and peer review before it becomes science - but if I were pregnant, I wouldn't get the shot based on this preliminary stage of the evidence.

What if you had a baby older than 6 months? Would you give your baby the flu shot, based on this preliminary stage of the evidence?

Probably. For one thing, it's a moot point because the only flu vaccine licensed for 6 months-23 months is thimerosal-free, and the CDC estimates there is enough thimerosal-free vaccine for every child aged 2-5. But age 2 sounds like a critical point:

-CDC

The influenza virus is constantly mutating and so the effectiveness rate for the flu vaccines is set at 40%.

That isn't a good percentage to convince me it is helpful or worth the risk of putting toxins in my body yearly.

When it is stated that what people die from are complications of pneumonia then I wonder why not just give people the pneumonia vaccine instead?

You only need one every ten years and protects from 23 strains of pneumonia. The 23 strains that cause the vast majority of influenza deaths.
I just wonder why the medical community doesn't push the one vaccine that actually targets the culprits that will kill.

Maybe off topic a little but it's a curious fact.

A couple of weeks ago I found a mercury calculator from the National Vaccine Information Center. It's interesting.

http://www.vaccine-tlc.org/calc.html

link

Huh. You mean there's money in vaccines? But what if they aren't as safe as the government thought way back when there were only 3 or 4 of them commonly used? What if they have injured millions of people since then? What if those people all sue?
So the government (aka politicians) can either get in bed with the liability-free vaccine makers and make a buck for themselves OR demand better testing of vaccines and vaccine ingredients and figure out where to get the money the vaccine injured people will need for medical care.

Extraordinary? Really?

link

Huh. You mean there's money in vaccines? But what if they aren't as safe as the government thought way back when there were only 3 or 4 of them commonly used? What if they have injured millions of people since then? What if those people all sue?
So the government (aka politicians) can either get in bed with the liability-free vaccine makers and make a buck for themselves OR demand better testing of vaccines and vaccine ingredients and figure out where to get the money the vaccine injured people will need for medical care.

Extraordinary? Really?

The example of the tobacco industry suggests that this is at least possible.

Oh you hippie chicks, scared of anything making money! :D

It's ok though, the story points out that
Any amount of money in it now can't inform the conspiracy theory of five years ago.

I'm tellin ya! Rule them out of your life, you'll be happier!

Yeah there wasn't much of a flu vaccine business before the recent flu scares.

Yes. And no one should have hacked the New Zealand climate data centers, because they never should have been asking "what if" the climate scientists there were lying in the first place. No scandal in history was ever exposed except by asking "what if."

Yeah the how-to-be-happier in life advice really cracked me up. I guess in that way, it worked...

There was an excellent article in Money magazine about vaccines years ago... maybe 10 years ago? I'll try to find it when I have time later.

Here it is. Just some history, for those that are interested.

:mad2: Fine, I was being nice, let's try it this way. :mad2:

Does your entire argument rest on these kinds of hypotheticals? Because that automatically shoots all kinds of holes in your thinking. Can you see how we can pretty much say "what if" followed by *anything* and make up an argument out of thin air? Can you see how, because of this, the words "what if" can never be used to form a logical, provable argument? Here, let me try:

WHAT IF the government created vaccines as a way to actually encourage disease, to make us all dependent on them in a sort of mass hysteria play? WHAT IF the Cellar is a tool to help get the right word out on it? WHAT IF Undertoad is a ploy in that game to try to rescue a situation that's failing rapidly? WHAT IF the government created polio as a way to further that scenario? WHAT IF the secret is on its way out and this is a last chance opportunity to keep it hidden? WHAT IF the CDC was created as a way to make people think the right information is in good hands? WHAT IF each new head of the CDC is indoctrinated in the right way? WHAT IF one of them decided not to go with the program and was assassinated? WHAT IF the rest of the CDC fell in line thinking they might be next? WHAT IF medicine is semi-aware of the problem and hospitals are part of a program to hide vaccine-related deaths? WHAT IF vaccine-related deaths are three times as common as we think? WHAT IF AIDS is part of the plot that kind of got away from them when they couldn't figure out a vaccine-based fix for it?

Naturally, we could go on all day with this kind of shit. And it wouldn't prove ANYTHING. If we wanted to address the above paragraph, we would have to address each What If entirely and provide proof that each What If was not true. But nobody can do that, because it's hard to impossible to prove the truth or falsehood of a hypothetical. And any hypothetical that's resolved can simply be replaced with another hypothethical. ("Of course the CDC wasn't created to make people think the information is in the right hands. But WHAT IF it evolved to that mission -- and nobody outside the government figured it out?")

And when you come to believe the hypotheticals, you are in effect creating your own truth out of thin air. When you do that, you become a little DUMBER EACH TIME. It's FAULTY THINKING. OK, OK, don't stop doing it because you'll be HAPPIER. Do it because you'll be SMARTER, and less worried about STUPID LITTLE CONCERNS that can keep you engaged in fighting shadows your whole life.

Better?

OR: let's try it another way. Your argument is But WHAT IF they aren't as safe as the government thought way back when there were only 3 or 4 of them commonly used?

My counter-argument: WHAT IF they're actually safer than they were back then?

Did I just "win"? Or did we just play a little rhetorical game and prove nothing?

Actually, some of them are safer now, but most didn't exist at all. Read the article I linked. Educate yourself.

*sigh* entirely not the point.

So its ok to "speculate" but saying "what if" requires a silly-long condescending response?
Did you read the article?

It's not "hard to impossible" to prove a hypothetical. It's called science, except they prefer the word hypothesis. But you actually have to do the studies, before you can get to that point. All they'd have to do is a large-scale study with vaccinated and unvaccinated controls. But they won't. Their claim is that it would be unethical, to not give vaccinations to babies in the interest of a clear and defined study, because they are certain the vaccinations are good and not bad. When it's pointed out that there are already tens of thousands of people voluntarily not vaccinating, and they could use them for the study... they just continue to say it wouldn't be ethical. That's the only response they've ever given.

They could test the hypothesis, and add to the body of science. They refuse. Why?

Precisely; and it's up to the writer of the hypothetical to show proof, otherwise, the hypothetical alone is not proof of anything.

Right. At which point, it's just a question of money.

Who funds medical studies?

alarmist hippie chicks?

Clod, glad you agree that jinx shouldn't argue using hypotheticals.

Who funds medical studies? I don't know, there are a lot of them, in many nations around the world. Are you talking about the ones that made AIDS no longer a death sentence? The ones that improved cancer survival rates by 20% over the last few decades? The groundbreaking genetics work or the amazing psychiatric findings in the last ten years?

Jinx, CNN/Money is the shittiest financial periodical, and perhaps the shittiest overall periodical I have ever come across. I know it seems a total cop-out, but I have no interest in pawing through one of their turds in order to find the wisdom nuggets in it. Just tell me what they said.

You're letting your anger make you petty, man. Everything I've said so far supports coming up with hypotheticals and then being allowed to test them.

Really? You want to go back to the whole "the medical field is a sainted profession that can do no wrong" stance? Obviously some scientists can, have, and will continue to do some great things. It helps when there's money in a cure, as all those medical problems above require treatment and medicines to be corrected. There's no money in it if the cure is to stop doing something.

Of course, as you're so fond of pointing out, the truth always does come out eventually, especially if the problem is a growing one. What is your opinion of the recent study that I linked earlier in the thread, demonstrating that the Hepatitis B vaccination given at birth categorically caused developmental delays in newborn monkeys?

But you don't support arguing with them without testing them. That was my point and you have made it.

I have not made such a statement, and haven't made it now.

You will have to add that asterisk to your conspiracy theory. Tell you what, why don't you just tell us your entire theory at once so that you don't have to pull it out of me somehow. Anyone with money does what now?

It's a small sample and not double-blind, but it's an interesting counterpart to the human studies. But moot for our purposes since thimerosal is not given to human newborns.

No, I don't support concluding with them without testing. But if the tests are being refused, then yes, you can argue the possibility of their existence as evidence that testing should be done.

First, it was double-blind, in that the researchers classifying the monkeys' developmental progress did not know which ones had been vaccinated, and the monkeys had no idea what was going on.

Second, it was not a "counterpart" to the human studies because there have been no human safety studies with the Hepatitis B vaccination, nor most of the other vaccinations on the infant schedule, nor any combination of them together. There was one study that linked a particular brand of Hepatitis B vaccine to an increased risk of a non-autistic neurological disorder, but that would put the monkey study on the same side as the human studies, not a counterpart.

Third, I didn't realize that our purposes at this moment were still on thimerosal. I'm not sure based on your comment if you do realize that the Hepatitis B vaccine gave developmental delays to monkeys without containing thimerosal, but if so forgive me for unfairly changing the subject. But you may expect that I'll inadvertently do it again in the future, because my purposes are not limited in scope that way. I said it pages ago, and I'll say it again: It's not just the MMR, and it's not just autism. It's also not just mercury, and not just dystonia.

You're the one who keeps calling it a conspiracy theory. I think that, just like some climate scientists, vaccine researchers are avoiding or outright fudging their data because they fundamentally believe they are right, and they feel it is a higher moral goal to convince the public they are right, even if it goes against the data.

People with money fund studies. By and large, this is pharmaceutical companies and equipment manufacturers. There are a lesser amount of public institutions that also fund studies, but they are usually hospitals and research facilities themselves that depend on the larger money from the pharmaceutical companies. And there are a handful of government agencies who are supposed to balance out the inherent bias that's going to be found in which studies get chosen by corporations. Usually they do a decent job of it, but they haven't been in this case. I suspect it's both because of the "means to an end" mentality I mentioned before, in addition to the fact that they are financially on the hook for billions of dollars if the hypothesis turns out to be true.

Almost all autism research that focuses on environmental sources has been privately funded by very small donors--and almost always there is a child with autism in the family. If I'm ever a 'person with money' in the largesse sense of the word, you can bet I'll be funding studies left and right. But until then, I rely on public funding to do good science. Instead, they're paying people to sit in a room dissecting the auditory properties of newborns' crying.

Um, no.
I went looking for that 12 year old article in response to you saying

and also in response to you telling me a few month ago that you were interested in the vaccine controversy... that you had been meaning to look into it for a while actually.

If you don't want to read the article that's fine. I don't really want to read any more of your posts that are all about how intelligent and logical you are. I want to talk about vaccines.

Your link didn't mention anything blind about it. (ETA: found it in the abstract, fine)

http://www.nfid.org/library/hepb_safety.shtml

There's seven of them in this page alone.

You'll have to point to that study as I am unaware of it.

"Look! J'accuse! This monkey study shows a problem with Hep B and thimerosal!"

"But numerous other studies show both are safe."

"What? I don't care - it's really about all the vaccines and all the additives!"

*sigh* then I suppose you won't bring up any more single-substance studies.

FTFY.

You know that's not true, you're just being bratty.

Can you just please point to those posts where I said how intelligent and logical I am. So I can apologize appropriately.

(Posts in which I point out illogic don't count.)

The Hepatitis B vaccine was much later in the schedule until 1991, when it was moved to the day of birth. So throw out every study except (Greenburg, 1993,) because they weren't testing babies getting injected on the day they're born. The Greenburg study doesn't seem to be available online, but I'd be interested to see how long they followed the babies' progress, since autistic symptoms are not usually diagnosed until two years later. Just looking for symptoms for 3-4 weeks after the shot won't reveal long-term immunological damage.

Maybe I don't understand what you're asking for here... It's the same study I was talking about earlier in the post. They compared unvaccinated monkeys, monkeys giving just a plain Hepatitis B vaccine, and monkeys given a Hepatitis B vaccine containing thimerosal. The plain-vaccine monkeys showed delays, the thimerosal-vaccine monkeys showed greater delays.

Once again, numerous studies do not show that the current adminstration methods of the Hepatitis B vaccine are safe. And numerous studies show quite the opposite of thimerosal; that it can be very unsafe, especially in younger babies and fetuses. Each individual part has its own risks, and there is a cumulative risk when you start stacking them one on top of the other. If you eat one bag of Doritos, your risk of stomach upset and atherosclerosis is there, but relatively low. If you eat a bag of Doritos every day, your risk of stomach upset and atherosclerosis is much higher. If you feed a baby a bag of Doritos every day, the effects will be much more stark than they are in an adult. I'm not sure why you seem to have a hard time understanding this.

Maybe we're looking at different studies. Re-link to the one you're talking about.

I understand it perfectly.

Ah, my mistake. The one that was linked earlier in the thread was just Hepatitis B including thimerosal. The other one doesn't seem to have been published yet; I read about it in an email alert from the research facility. They're doing the entire vaccination schedule, American (no thimerosal) and developing country (with thimerosal) versions, and they're getting completed and published one at a time.

Another day, more reading! This review article summarizes a number of studies. Here is the section on "too many vaccines".

The idea is not that it overwhelms the immune system, it is that it artificially overstimulates it. It is not the viruses that are the problem, as indeed, babies encounter viruses every day. It is the adjuvants which deliberately induce an overreaction of the immune system, and they are not substances the average baby would come in contact with at all.

Again, it is irrelevant that there are fewer bacteriological proteins in the number of vaccines today, as the number of adjuvant doses has gone up in precise accordance with the number of shots. As I have pointed out before, in countries where it is the norm to deliver the vaccinations through a breathing treatment, with no adjuvant necessary, the autism rate is vastly lower.

A normal child, yes. Autistic children generally fall into one of two categories: either they are infected with 4-6 viruses about every two months (the immune system is not responding,) or they are infected with 0 viruses a year (the immune system is over-responding.)

There is, in fact, plenty of evidence of immune activation and inflammatory lesions. The lesions are usually in the intestines. Here is a gastroenterologist's testimony on it before Congress, including pictures of said lesions from the pill cams that he routinely sends down his autistic patients' gullets.

Right. No studies have been done, and our only excuse is because it would be unethical not to give vaccines, even to volunteers, because we are so certain they are good.

The issues here are obviously that if they did allow a study using volunteers, there are too many variables for starters. Secondly, what if the study did show that children who didn't receive vaccines were worse off? What do you think the outcome would be then? Lawsuits? Thirdly, unvaccinated children are less at risk of the diseases in vaccines because of the greater percentage of children covered. What do you think the infant mortality and/or permanent physical or neurological damage rate was prior to vaccination, and how can a real study be done when the circumstances of with and without vaccines is impossible?

Another way to think of adjuvants is: anything the immune system has to fight off. So if a baby eats a something off the ground, bam, probably several hundred adjuvants in it.

So: babies fighting off more stuff today? Or more 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago?

By the way, since we last talked about squalene, I've learned that the human body produces it normally, in the sebaceous glands.

Now you've got my attention. Cite?

The article suggested that lesions in the central nervous system, not the intestines, are the indicator of autoimmune disease that affects... the things that the nervous system runs! Is the article wrong?

Yes. Because as I've said from the beginning, most if not all of the behaviors are not neurological at all, and not forcibly generated by the lesions; the behavior is in fact an entirely normal response to being in constant, searing pain 24 hours a day and being unable to communicate about it. Ask dar512 to describe his Crohn's pain at its worst, with no medications to help, and now pretend you are a toddler with no understanding of what is going on, and no way to tell anyone what hurts. Autistic kids beat their heads against walls because it is an over-sensory distraction from the pain. Autistic kids scream and fling themselves on the floor because they are in pain. Autistic kids can't focus on anything or remember anything they are taught partly because they are in pain. These are the behaviors that are improved with gastrointestinal interventions. There are other pieces to the treatment that must go hand-in-hand, but the gastrointestinal treatment is a big part of it.

My son is thrilled to be drinking his nasty-ass liquid formula all day long. You can hold out his favorite cookie and ask him if he wants it, and he will tell you no. Because he's not in pain anymore, and he's sharp enough to recognize what made him feel better. After only two weeks on the formula, he's suddenly starting to have honest-to-God conversations with me.

Personal experience for the most part. I know there are cites available, though, and I will try to find one for you later this afternoon. Gotta go get dinner started right now.

I don't have access to any of the actual papers, but here is a complete list of cites regarding the autoimmune component of autism, and I bolded the ones that I would guess include examination of the over- or underactive attributes:



Ashwood P, Kwong C, Hansen R, Hertz-Picciotto I, Croen L, Krakowiak P, Walker W, Pessah IN, Van de Water J. Brief report: plasma leptin levels are elevated in autism: association with early onset phenotype? J Autism Dev Disord. 2008 Jan;38(1):169-75.

Ashwood P, et al. Spontaneous mucosal lymphocyte cytokine profiles in children with autism and gastrointestinal symptoms: mucosal immune activation and reduced counter regulatory interleukin-10. J Clin Immunol. 2004 Nov;24(6):664-73.

Ashwood P, Van de Water J. Is autism an autoimmune disease? Autoimmun Rev. 2004 Nov;3(7-8):557-62.

Ashwood P, et al. The immune response in autism: a new frontier for autism research. J Leuk Biol. 2006 Jul:80;1-15.

Bayary J, et al. Intravenous immunoglobulin in autoimmune disorders: an insight into the immunoregulatory mechanisms. Int Immunopharmacol. 2006 Apr;6(4):528-34.
Boris M, et al. Improvement in children treated with intravenous gamma globulin. J Nutr Environmental Med. Dec 2006; 15(4):1-8.

Boris M, et al. Effect of Pioglitazone treatment on behavioral symptoms in autistic children. J Neuroinflammation. 2007 Jan 5;4:3.

Bradstreet JJ, Smith S, Granpeesheh D, El-Dahr JM, Rossignol D. Spironolactone Might be a Desirable Immunologic and Hormonal Intervention in Autism Spectrum Disorders. Med Hypotheses. 2006 Dec 4.

Brandtzaeg P. Current Understanding of Gastrointestinal Immunoregulation and Its Relation to Food Allergy. Ann NY Acad Sci. 2002;964:14-45.

Braunschweig D, et al. Autism: Maternally derived antibodies specific for fetal brain proteins. Neurotoxicology. 2007 Nov 6.

Bray TM, Taylor CG. Enhancement of tissue glutathione for antioxidant and immune functions in malnutrition. Biochem Pharmacol. 1994 Jun 15;47(12):2113-23.

Cabanlit M, Wills S, Goines P, Ashwood P, Van de Water J. Brain-specific autoantibodies in the plasma of subjects with autistic spectrum disorder. Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2007 Jun;1107:92-103.

Cave SF. The history of vaccinations in the light of the autism epidemic. Altern Ther Health Med. 2008 Nov-Dec;14(6):54-7.

Chinetti G, Fruchart JC, Staels B. Peroxisome proliferators-activated receptors (PPAR): nuclear receptors at the crossroads between lipid metabolism and inflammation. Inflamm Res 2000;49:497-505.

Cohly HH, Panja A. Immunological findings in autism. Int Rev Neurobiol. 2005;71:317-41.

Chmelik, E., N. Awadallah, et al. (2004). Varied presentation of PANDAS: a case series. Clin Pediatr (Phila) 43(4): 379-82.

Connolly AM, Chez MG, Pestronk A, Arnold ST, Mehta S, Deuel RK. Serum autoantibodies to brain in Landau-Kleffner variant, autism, and other neurologic disorders. J Pediatr. 1999 May;134(5):607-13.

Croen LA, Grether JK, Yoshida CK, Odouli R, Van de Water J. Maternal autoimmune diseases, asthma and allergies, and childhood autism spectrum disorders: a case-control study. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005 Feb;159(2):151-7.

Croonenberghs J, Wauters A, Devreese K, Verkerk R, Scharpe S, Bosmans E, Egyed B, Deboutte D, Maes M. Increased serum albumin, gamma globulin, immunoglobulin IgG, and IgG2 and IgG4 in autism. Psychol Med. 2002 Nov;32(8):1457-63.

Croonenberghs J, et al. Activation of the inflammatory response system in autism. Neuropsychobiology 2002, 45(1):1-6.

Cross ML. Immune-signalling by orally-delivered probiotic bacteria: effects on common mucosal immunoresponses and protection at distal mucosal sites. Int J Immunopathol Pharmacol. 2004 May-Aug;17(2):127-34.

Dalton P, et al. Maternal neuronal antibodies associated with autism and a language disorder. Ann Neurol. 2003 Apr;53(4):533-7. DelGiudice-Asch G, Simon L, Schmeidler J, Cunningham-Rundles C, Hollander E. Brief report: A pilot open clinical trial of intravenous immunoglobulin in childhood autism. J Autism Dev Disord. 1999:29(2):157-60.

Denney DR, et al. Lymphocyte subsets and interleukin-2 receptors in autistic children. J Autism Dev Disord. 1996 Feb;26(1):87-97.

Dietert RR, Dietert JM. Potential for early-life immune insult including developmental immunotoxicity in autism and autism spectrum disorders: focus on critical windows of immune vulnerability.J Toxicol Environ Health B Crit Rev. 2008 Oct;11(8):660-80.

Drakes M, Blanchard T, Czinn S. Bacterial probiotic modulation of dendritic cells. Infect Immun. 2004 Jun;72(6):3299-309.

Droge W, Breitkreutz R. Glutathione and immune function. Proc Nutr Soc. 2000 Nov;59(4):595-600. Elchaar GM, Maisch NM, Augusto LM, Wehring HJ. Efficacy and safety of naltrexone use in pediatric patients with autistic disorder. Ann Pharmacother. 2006 Jun;40(6):1086-95.

Engstrom HA, Ohlson S, Stubbs EG, Maciulis A, Caldwell V, Odell JD, Torres A.R. Decreased Expression of CD95 (FAS/APO-1) on CD4+ T-lymphocytes from Participants with Autism. J Dev Phys Disabil. 2003 Jun 15;2:155-163(9).

Ferrante P, Saresella M, Guerini FR, Marzorati M, Musetti MC, Cazzullo AG. Significant association of HLA A2-DR11 with CD4 naive decrease in autistic children. Biomed Pharmacother. 2003 Oct;57(8):372-4.

Feinstein DL. Therapeutic potential of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor agonists for neurological disease. Diabetes Technol Ther. 2003;5(1):67-73.

Fudenberg HH. Dialysable lymphocyte extract (DLyE) in infantile onset autism: a pilot study. Biotherapy. 1996;9(1-3):143-7.

Furlano RI, et al. Autism and the immune system. J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 1997 Mar;38(3):337-49.Griem P., et al.; Allergic and autoimmune reactions to xenobiotics: how do they arise? Immunology Today 19: 133-141, 1998.

Gao HM, Hong JS. Why neurodegenerative diseases are progressive: uncontrolled inflammation drives disease progression. Trends Immunol. 2008 Aug;29(8):357-65.

Geier DA, Geier MR. A Clinical and Laboratory Evaluation of Methionine Cycle-Transsulfuration and Androgen Pathway Markers in Children with Autistic Disorders. Horm Res. 2006 Jul 5;66(4):182-188.

Geier DA, Mumper E, Gladfelter B, Coleman L, Geier MR. Neurodevelopmental disorders, maternal Rh-negativity, and Rho(D) immune globulins: a multi-center assessment. Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2008 Apr;29(2):272-80.

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:p

Yes neurological and yes biomedical treatment is a means of providing a healthy nervous system response but not a means to an end.


There are too many variables and too many levels of competency in individuals to lump all behaviors 'as attributed to pain.'

I've seen a lot of head bangers. Kickers screamers and hair pullers. yes Some were in pain because their stomach hurt but most were just pissed because the tag in the back of the t shirt tickled too much or someone wore perfume or maybe the light was too bright or someone was making noise.

And those are the bad behaviors. There are plenty of good behaviors too in association with autism and they are not gut related.

[edit] I should say that these people had no verbal communication skills. Not having any verbal communication skills or the ability to convey wants and needs is very frustrating and leads to aggressive and SIB behavior.

High functioning individuals have fewer episodes of aggression if behavior modification and training take place. A person who can self monitor their diet is even in a better place as far as positive behaviors but I've never seen a diet be the end all for a person/child with true autism.

Behaviors is a large vague word. Behaviors are multi faceted and interconnected on so many physiological levels.

I do agree that the stomach and intestines can be messed up and if curing/soothing/balancing that piece removes a child/person from the autism spectrum because all behaviors of that diagnosis no longer appear then that child never had autism to begin with.


I do get and see where you are coming from but saying most behaviors are not neurological is disinformation.

It's all connected, sidhe. Yes, my son also had major sensory issues aside from pain, including visual, tactile, vestibular, and proprioceptive. And you know what? When we pulled the allergens out of his system... about 90% of those sensitivities--and the behaviors they subsequently led to--went away. I've known other kids whose sensory issues didn't go away until they peed a thermometer while on chelation drugs.

Consider it this way: when you are drunk, is it neurological? Yes, in the sense that it is your brain that is impaired. But what is actively messing up the brain? Something you ingested. It is not an inherent, pre-existing neurological condition.

You may also note I did not "lump all behaviors" in together. I listed three very specific behaviors that resulted from pain, in fact, and noted that other treatments were an integral part. And you still don't seem to understand that a diagnosis of autism is the presence of behaviors, and nothing else. To say that someone never had autism to begin with is akin to saying that because you are no longer sneezing, you never sneezed to begin with. But thanks once again for your deep insight.

I don't have deep insight. Just two cents. Thanks for clarifying.

I'm not sure what I think about vaccinations causing autism however and so I avidly read everyone's comments on it and appreciate them very much. Makes for good reading.

anyway,

Mostly I am very happy you have had so much success with your son. I really am. :)

I don't mean to lesson the importance of what you say by being short but I have to go watch a movie with a special someone.

Desiree update:

Her website is gone. (It had been sponsored and designed by a maker of portable hyperbaric units.) She had promised regular updates.

The Wikipedia entry on her controversy is removed as not being notable enough.

Please don't ever lampoon me for posting links which support my views on things in the politics thread again. Eva. Thanks, bye.

wow clod. I didn't read well enough your response.

oh well
Never argue with a parent.

Um, Merc? I don't lampoon your sources in the politics forum. I skim the threads at best, and hop in on occasion when you say something that seems completely at odds with other things you yourself have said. I definitely don't read anything anyone quotes in those threads, because politics bores me. Secondly, if you can only nitpick 1 out of 115 separate studies cited, I'm cool with that.