On wet grass, mud, loose gravel, sand, snow, ice, anywhere the traction is iffy, the tires are fighting the surface more than each other. Maybe you haven't driven one in those conditions? I had the cheapest 4x4 pickup with no load and it was indeed miraculous in snow, including when turning. It had no differential and thus was dangerous in dry conditions.

The main problem we have over here with 4 wheel drives, is that they are invariably used in inappropriate places and for inappropriate purposes.

I live in a tiny village; with lanes designed for single lane horse and carriage use. When I walk past the village school the place looks like a fucking 4x4 convention. Massive cars, using massive amounts of petrol, to ferry a small child the ten minutes it takes to get to school. Thereby making the roads significantly more dangerous for any children whose parents elect to walk them to school.

That's one of the problems with using rangerovers and landrovers in a built up, or narrow laned area: in the event that a child is hit, the chances of fatality are that much more if they're hit by one of these cars, which tend to have much higher bumpers and bigger grills.

Wow Jinx, that Jeep video is awesome! And points out exactly what's going on. All four tires have to turn at different speeds or not turn at all. In my truck that would have been impossible. Most excellent.

Same here Dani - not re the school (as they have a VERY effective reward system for walk/ cycle/ scoot/ car-share, which must be a nightmare for working parents) but the closer you get to London the more "Chelsea Tractors" you see. Sat in traffic jams, within the Congestion Charge area, carrier/ gym bags on the back seat and SPOTLESSLY clean inside and out. I could be wrong, the fit young lady driving could just have come back from Scotland and stopped off at the garage for a spot of OCD car cleaning. Or from driving along Blackpool Beach, or whale spotting in Wales. But the good chance is she (alone in her 4x4) has just been shopping and perhaps on a running machine.

It's not up to me to tell people how to spend their money, but it seems a shame when having it affects everyone else (ie those with money can ignore the spirit of the Congestion Charge because they can afford to, and are often found in bus lanes because they just HAD to "pop in and pick something up!")

I confess I would have two cars if I won the lottery. My town car (probably a Beetle or a Nissan Micra) for 90% of the time and my big fuck-off Jeep for bad weather and pulling people out of ditches. Each for its own time and meticulously cared for in between.

Oh and a driver...
Am I straying too far from the point now...?

This is where you're fucked up, 4 wheel drive does NOT interconnect the 4 wheels to all turn together. 4 wheel drive is a misnomer, it's actually 2 axle drive. Each axle has 2 wheels (except dualies but forget them), and between the 2 wheels is a differential, like all cars.
So with 2 wheel drive, 1 wheel is actually powering the car, and with 4 wheel drive it's two wheels powering the car. Only certain race cars that operate on loose (dirt) surfaces, or only turn at slow speeds (drag racers), have a locked differential (called a spool) to turn both wheels on the axle together.

Now many (most?) 4 wheel drive vehicles use a limited slip differential on at least the rear axle. Either Eaton's clutch type (like GM's posi-traction), a ratchet type (like Ford's Detroit Locker) or the newer Torsen geared type (developed for front wheel drive cars) so that when the wheel powering the axle loses traction, the power is transfered to the other wheel on that axle. Newer (read high end, more expensive) systems, especially full time all wheel drive systems, use a limited slip differential between the front and rear axles.

Many 4 wheel drive systems, especially in trucks, are designed and built so the front axle turns a tiny bit faster than the rear axle. This is for straight line stability at speed. On loose surfaces it's not a problem, but on dry (good traction) surfaces it can cause increase rear tire wear. This is where that "wheels fight each other" shit comes from. Actually a couple of pounds difference in tire pressure can cause the same condition, but it's not a serious safety issue.

This has nothing to do with 4 wheel drive, it's a social issue. Scandinavia is loaded (dominated?) by 4 wheel drive vehicles that are no bigger than the 2 wheel drive counterparts. Subaru, BMW, VW, Ford, Audi, Infiniti, Volvo, Mitsubishi, are some of the companies making 4, or all, wheel drive cars no bigger than the 2 wheel drive crowd.


Now the newer electronically controlled, viscous coupling, 4 wheel/all wheel drives sound like the perfect choice for being prepared. BUT, the reality is the are more expensive to buy, and to operate. More moving parts to buy initially, more shit to wear out, more systemic parasitic power losses, although the new systems have cut those losses to a minimum. Plus the fact that in more heavily populated parts of civilization, the roads are cleared pretty quickly, usually less than 24 hours (bare pavement in 36) in most cases.

Therefore, the cheaper/smarter choice, unless you do some serious off roading (damn few do), or you're a survivalist, is leave the 4 wheel drives to the EMTs, or people that absolutely-positively-have-to-get-there, and stay the hell home and have orgies, on the few days a year the roads are bad... or learn to drive in bad weather.

I might get of these, if they come in baby Pink :)

Like all vehicles, they come in anything you can afford. ;)

Correct until you got to the part about "like all cars If it had a differential like all cars, then the only wheel that spins is the stuck one. So that other wheels will also turn, that 4 wheel drive differential must interconnect (lock) the wheels. Also called limited slip differentials. And more infighting between front and rear wheels.

When trucks had hubs, that interconnection was rock solid. If you drove that vehicle at 30 MPH, you could easily roll the vehicle. So that the today's four wheel drives do not routinely roll over, the differential is not locked as firmly. But all wheels must still be interconnected – causing reduce moving safety. It has a limited slip differential. That means wheels still fight each other. And also increase tire wear.

Why tire wear? Because the wheels on four wheel drive are constantly fighting each other. Increasing tire wear. Reduced traction and control at/above 30 MPH. The compromise. Reduce moving safety so that the vehicle can more easily get started.

Safety is secondary on vehicles designed to have less ground clearance than a Humvee and also be less stable. One icy roads, the last vehicle I want to be in is a four wheel drive where all wheels are fighting each other due to limited slip differentials and another interlock between from and rear wheels.

But those local gossip bimbos tell us to believe differently. As you noted, the limited slip differential is why four wheel drive wheels fight each other - causing less control and increased tire wear. That means less control and less safety. That means less braking and tires more easily losing traction during emergency manuevers. Same thing that increases tire wear also means less control when moving on icy roads.

Which do we believe? Advertising or reality? As DanaC demonstrates, a four wheel drive is not about needing to go off road. In most every case, it's about ego. And this myth that such vehicles are safer because they are higher, etc.

A nearby family suffered last week on the way to FL. She caught the left edge of the left lane on I-95 in SC. Because such trucks are so unstable, it flipped when it snapped back onto the road. Only the most unsafe vehicles with less stability flip more often. One of two kids were killed. These trucks are some of the least stable vehicles. Add four wheel drive to make them even less safe in inclement weather.

Yay! A baby pink Panda it is then!

On wet grass, mud, loose gravel, sand, snow, ice, anywhere the traction is iffy, tire wear does not occur.

We suspected you had no actual experience driving one.

And do they have a UAW equivalent there?

I have owned a 4 wheel drive vehicle or truck since 1985. I would never be without.

Wrong. All cars have differentials. Most of them are "open", which means the power is transmitted to the wheel with the least traction. The "limited slip" differentials transmit the power to the wheel with the most traction. I have them in my 2 wheel drive vehicles. There's no "infighting" between wheels, the wheels take what they are given by the differential, and do the best they can with it. There could only be "infighting" if the power originated at the wheels... duh

Stop right there. You're describing an ancient system, most popular with WW II vintage, military 4x4s, 6x6s and 8x8s. They used a locked front differential that was driven full time, with the front wheels connected/disconnected from the always driven axle, at the hubs. If the traction was good and they locked the front wheels to the axle, both wheels have to turn at the same speed, so trying to steer around a corner where the front wheels have to turn at different speeds, all hell would break loose. The hubs could only be locked if it was slippery, or you were going straight.
This system is extremely inefficient and expensive, because of all the moving parts that require power and are wearing out, even when not used to drive the vehicle. After the war, (the big one, WW II), they used a transfer care for the front wheels that could be shifted into neutral, but retained the locking hubs. Early smaller 4x4 trucks used this system, but as 4x4s became more popular with hunters, farmers, and snow plowers, this system was discarded for more efficient systems with limited slip differentials, thus ending the "infighting" between wheels.
I've got news for you, every vehicle on the road has all it's tires interconnected, otherwise when you turn the corner, your wheels might not. They might decide to stop at the tire bar for a recap. Seriously, they are all interconnected, the only thing that's different is the way the car decides which tires are better suited to moving the car in various traction conditions.
You just don't get it, do you.:headshake
Simple fact, if you are going off road, or through deep snow, you need ground clearance. When the traction is limited, I'm glad my 2 wheel drive vehicles have limited slip differentials, and an added bonus is on dry roads I can leave 2 big strips of burning rubber, which pisses off the tw types to no end.

Maybe the "local gossip bimbos" are aware of the many choices I pointed out to Dana, or maybe just trying to scare the people that shouldn't be driving anyway, into staying home.
You obviously didn't understand what I said or why. No wait, you probably did, but disregarded it because it doesn't support your campaign to demonize SUVs as the route/root of all evil, and 4 wheel drive as a symbol of SUVs.

Uh, Dana's people were not going off road.
"Caught the left edge" means she drove off the road, and "snapped back onto the road" means she did exactly the wrong thing. I wonder if the kid was belted in? It's a shame she killed one her kids because she didn't stay on the road, and didn't know how to drive. Fortunately she can absolve herself of any responsibility, by blaming the vehicle. They have yet to invent an idiot proof vehicle, of any sort.

I think they have some sort of workers organization, but they also have the advantage of the European culture of much longer vacations, and government supported health care.

Among other forms of social support which is among the reasons they are in so deep.