Keep in mind that every scientific "fact" is just the latest guest. The better ones are made with documented research but it's still a guess.

I'm now all in on climate change.

Nobody really wants to know anyone's opinion on this, they just want to confirm their own, or have a fight. I've stopped talking about it, when I remember to (that's why I just deleted 6 paragraphs and replaced them with this)

And every post is still a lie. Anyone can spin nonsense. But global warming clearly exists and clearly is created by mankind. Unfortunately, plenty of ostriches also exist.

Reality does not change only because someone denies - without any facts or numbers. A best guess is overwhelmly promoted by research and numbers. Those who deny global warming have no such numbers - just twisted speculation inspired by emotions.

What is now seen? The guess (research) from 40 years ago got it wrong. Global warming created by mankind is happening faster than what was originally predicted.

Actually, I wanted to know and that's why I asked. Because the Cellar is an escape from the typical 'echo chamber' of social media, we can hear opinions from people whose intellect we respect, but whose conclusions we don't share. At best, this means my opinions are challenged and it gives me a reason to evaluate whether they should be changed; and at the very least it lets me understand the basis of people's viewpoint. This has happened many, many, many times, and I will never accept the premise that "people shouldn't talk about politics" or whatever.

In a thread here recently, Henry Quirk finally got through to me what people mean about the difference between Capitalism and Free Enterprise, and because of that I don't think people who are further right than me on the economic scale sound like gibbering nincompoops. I still disagree, but I see the opposing views being rooted in the same exact concerns.

Also, I acknowledge UT as a champion for "not being stupid on the internet and talking in circles" and I see that and I commend you for that. That's another thing where my viewpoint was influenced because I listened to somebody explain something.

Unfortunately, almost no 'global warming' deniers post any research or even numbers. Their reasoning breaks down into a "conspiracy by scientist". And subjective (qualitative) conclusions - no numbers.

In a similar vein are so many who recommend Early Streamer Emission to protect from lightning. They claim those pointy devices will discharge the air - avert lightning. Once fact that repeatedly appears: no research demonstrates that popular myth. And still so many believe it only because it was the first thing they were told using wild speculation. Without any numbers and any reason why.

Same applies to global warming deniers (ie a Senator from Oklahoma). Only reason to deny it - emotions. Or one gets political power by hyping myths to the naive. A classic example that many adults still think like a child - emotionally.

Where were these people when science also proved destruction of the ozone layer? Back then, science was respected. And was therefore correct.

Science clearly says mankind is creating global warming. As more facts are discovered, the science is again and again confirmed. Only question has always been how much - how fasts.

One of the last deniers of global warming was a best expert on the Atlantic Oscillatory effect. However, once facts (numbers) for deep ocean temperatures were collected, even he reversed his conclusion. Even he admitted mankind is clearly creating this global warming.

Simulations from decades ago have been accurate; have identified the trends. However some variations in those trends were a source of controversy.

If what has been happening in deep oceans hold true, then this global warming may even accelerate. Will it? There is no doubt that mankind has created global warming. Only question is how fast - the details. And whether this climate change will continue or accelerate.

And finally, the coal industry deserves to be undermined (pun?). The coal industry has done no innovations in the past 40 years. Coal industry even undermined IGCC research. It might hurt short term profits. Innovation is never profitable on spread sheets until long after that innovation is no longer innovative.

So coal must invent every possible excuse to deny global warming. To destroy jobs - to continue stifling innovation.

"Henry Quirk finally got through to me what people mean about the difference between Capitalism and Free Enterprise"

You're welcome. :thumb:

No problem. Usually when people say extremely wrong things, they state it in big, fancy words--so you know they're full of it and you throw the baby out with the bathwater. You were wrong in layman's terms, so it was easier to spot where your mistake was. :stickpoke