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-   -   Guns don't kill people .... (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=24412)

it 03-27-2012 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spexxvet (Post 706632)
... But they accidently discharge, sending a bullet into a 15 year old girl's head and a 15 year old boy's neck.

http://www.wfrv.com/news/local/Two-s...114197884.html
i think this is completely missing the point your trying to make - being 17, and carrying a gun with the safety off in her purse, it was illegal for her in the first place - so if she already broke existing gun control rules how would more gun control rules would help?

guns are a market that needs to be kept under control percisely because you dont want untrained teenagers to carry it in public places on a common basis, percisely because you want this sort of thing to be rare, and that means you want to marginalize the black market as much as you possibly can.

why? for the same reason me and probably most of the people here had no problem getting weed throughout highschool - let's not apply the same rotten logic to guns.

classicman 03-27-2012 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spexxvet (Post 804119)
So, if firearms aren't a huge problem, why do people want a firearm to protect themselves from being shot to death?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spexxvet (Post 803769)
Need I continue with this stupid rationale?
apparently so.

Lamplighter 03-27-2012 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by footfootfoot (Post 804116)
Here is a pdf from CDC showing the top 15 causes of death in the US over several years broken down into excruciating detail.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/dea...09_release.pdf

One thing is pretty clear, people die from firearm related injuries. But not that many as compared to the other forms of death

Assault (homicide) with a firearm counts for just under 11,500 deaths in 2009.

Intentional self harm (Suicide) by firearm about 18,700 (I would leave this out as a determined suicide will find other means.)

Aortic Dissection claimed about 10,500 in 2009.

For comparison's sake Aortic dissection is described as
Originally Posted by http://www.iradonline.org/about.html
Quote:
... a rare but serious condition that mostly occurs in men aged 60 to 80.
I am finding it very hard to think of guns, as they exist in this country, as being particularly lethal to the population.
Once again this is non-comparative thinking:

It's only useful if by changing A, there is a causal change in B.
For a (hypothetical) example:
- suicide by gun does happen
- attempted suicide by gun does happen
- but, of the attempted suicides by gun, only 10% are later successful
Therefore, if you prevent an attempted suicide, there's a good chance you have prevented successful suicide.

Here is my misquote:
"When one person dies it is a tragedy, when thousands die it's a statistic."

I urge everyone to look beyond gun "deaths"
Look at the numbers of injuries, and specifically "unintended" incidents
For example, the numbers of Emergency Room visits related to guns.

Also, look at the use of guns as intimidators of women, and/or "domestic violence"
- threats of suicide
- threats to kill the wife/girl friend
- threats to kill the children


California found 66% of the battered women in shelters had been intimidated with a gun.

A national random survey found more hostile gun displays against women in the home
—primarily by intimate partners—
than self-defense gun uses in the home by women or anyone else.

Children do find guns...
If you ever have children in your home, are your guns already safe from them ?
If your children visit other homes, do you FIRST ask if there are any guns in that home?

lookout123 03-27-2012 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamplighter (Post 804140)

California found 66% of the battered women in shelters had been intimidated with a gun.
For that to be even a remotely useful statistic you should probably ask how many were threatened with a legally owned gun. I'm certain some of them were, maybe even a large percentage. I'm also confident that anyone who batters his wife would be just as likely to use his hand, frying pan, or wrench.

Those are strawman arguments setup so you can say, "if we had tougher gun laws or better yet no guns, no women would be abused". *buzzzzz* Thanks for playing, but guess again.

People kill each other. They've done it for a long time and apparently without guns if you believe the whole Cain v Abel bit.

lookout123 03-27-2012 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spexxvet (Post 804119)
So, if firearms aren't a huge problem, why do people want a firearm to protect themselves from being shot to death?
Maybe for the same reason I have excellent auto and homeowners insurance even though I haven't needed to use it. You know that whole, better to have it and not need it bit...

At the end of the day there are a lot of people who hate guns for a variety of reasons. In my opinion most of those reasons tie back to a fear of guns because of unfamiliarity. I don't care if you don't want to own a gun. If they scare you, you shouldn't have one. I fully support laws designed to keep handguns out of the hands of convicted felons. I don't support laws designed to make it harder for law abiding citizens to purchase and maintain firearms. I'll be damned if your fear of something leads to my not being able to protect my family should the need arise.

wolf 03-27-2012 06:16 PM
Applause.

sexobon 03-27-2012 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibram (Post 804041)
I really, really enjoy firing guns. ... It's... not the same as archery or darts.
There are Civil War re-enactors clubs. There are Old West re-enactors/Cowboy Shooting clubs. There are WWII re-enactors clubs. Maybe it's time for someone to start a Community Watch re-enactors club. The club might even get corporate sponsorship to provide free hoodies!




(just kidding, I know you said target shooting)

ZenGum 03-27-2012 07:03 PM
:lol: you naughty naughty person you.

classicman 03-27-2012 08:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf (Post 804159)
Applause.
Standing ovation!

footfootfoot 03-27-2012 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spexxvet (Post 804119)
So, if firearms aren't a huge problem, why do people want a firearm to protect themselves from being shot to death?
Is that why people want firearms?

footfootfoot 03-27-2012 08:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamplighter (Post 804140)
Once again this is non-comparative thinking:

It's only useful if by changing A, there is a causal change in B.
For a (hypothetical) example:
- suicide by gun does happen
- attempted suicide by gun does happen
- but, of the attempted suicides by gun, only 10% are later successful
Therefore, if you prevent an attempted suicide, there's a good chance you have prevented successful suicide BY FIREARM. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Here is my misquote:
"When one person dies it is a tragedy, when thousands die it's a statistic."

I urge everyone to look beyond gun "deaths"
Look at the numbers of injuries, and specifically "unintended" incidents
For example, the numbers of Emergency Room visits related to guns. Still very small. CDC reports on that.

Also, look at the use of guns as intimidators of women, and/or "domestic violence"
- threats of suicide
- threats to kill the wife/girl friend
- threats to kill the children


California found 66% of the battered women in shelters had been intimidated with a gun. A useless statistic. 66% of how many women? 100? 1000? I know that even one is too many, but abusers will use any tool at their disposal. Lack of having a weapon won't change an underlying mindset. The other thing missing from that statistic is did it happen once in their life or seven times a day?

A national random survey found more hostile gun displays against women in the home
—primarily by intimate partners—
than self-defense gun uses in the home by women or anyone else. That's only because women don't listen.

Children do find guns...
If you ever have children in your home, are your guns already safe from them ? YES. The same is true for bleach, solvents, and so forth.
If your children visit other homes, do you FIRST ask if there are any guns in that home? I admit, I hadn't thought of that, but I have taught my kids what to do if they ever find a firearm.

wolf 03-27-2012 08:35 PM
By the way ... I think somebody's cooking the numbers. 21K suicides by firearm is too high. There are around 30K completed suicides annually. Less than half of those are by firearm.

classicman 03-27-2012 09:59 PM
Quote:
-Over 36,000 people in the United States die by suicide every year.
-Ninety percent of all people who die by suicide have a diagnosable psychiatric disorder at the time of their death.
-Firearms account for 50 percent of all suicides.
Link

Lamplighter 03-27-2012 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by footfootfoot (Post 804197)
Quote:
California found 66% of the battered women in shelters had been intimidated with a gun.
A useless statistic. 66% of how many women? 100? 1000?
I know that even one is too many, but abusers will use any tool at their disposal.
Lack of having a weapon won't change an underlying mindset.
The other thing missing from that statistic is did it happen once in their life or seven times a day?
FWIW, what difference does it make how often ?
Is once enough, or does the intimidator get one freebee, or two, or... ?

Here is data from the Abstract:

Quote:
Am J Public Health. 2004 Aug;94(8):1412-7.
Weapons in the lives of battered women.
Sorenson SB, Wiebe DJ.
School of Public Health, University of California, Los Angeles

OBJECTIVES:
We assessed weapon use in intimate partner violence and perspectives on hypothetical firearm policies.

METHODS:
We conducted structured in-person interviews with 417 women in 67 battered women's shelters.

RESULTS:
Words, hands/fists, and feet were the most common weapons used against and by battered women.
About one third of the battered women had a firearm in the home.
In two thirds of these households, the intimate partner used the gun(s) against the woman,
usually threatening to shoot/kill her (71.4%) or to shoot at her (5.1%).
Most battered women thought spousal notification/consultation regarding gun purchase
would be useful and that a personalized firearm ("smart gun") in the home would make things worse.

footfootfoot 03-27-2012 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamplighter (Post 804222)
FWIW, what difference does it make how often ?
Is once enough, or does the intimidator get one freebee, or two, or... ?
I wholeheartedly agree. However having a firearm doesn't make a person an abuser.

Also the figure isn't 66% of battered women in shelters. It is 66% of one third.
Quote:
About one third of the battered women had a firearm in the home.
In two thirds of these households...
So, 417 * .33 = 137

137 * .66 = 90

The real number is 90/417 or about 21%

Still shitty if you are being abused, but closer to truth and accuracy.


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