I never said nor inferred that atheists aren't allowed to do their part to better mankind as well. I merely stated that that is a way of living that all (obviously all don't) Christians ought to go by instead of wasting time and money of things like creation museums.

First off, don't make asinine comments like that because it contributes nothing to this conversation and only makes you look like an ass, which doesn't help people take what you say seriously. You're obviously a smart dude, don't obscure that fact with near useless comments.

That out of the way..

Christian morality comes from our faith. However everyone obviously has different senses of right and wrong. Some people think it is moral to steal from the rich and give it to the poor, others think the opposite. I take much of what the Bible says with a healthy dose of salt due to the history of the church and all that jazz. I base my faith off of wait for it.. faith. I don't tell others how to live, and I try to live my life in the footsteps of Jesus. Helping my fellow man instead of competing with him or using him for my own gains, serving others before myself, etc. I try to hold myself to a higher standard but not "look down my nose" at others like many conservative Christians do (gays, etc.).

My point being with all that said is that my sense of morality in my everyday life and my more long term outlook is dictated by how Jesus said we ought to. And I think what he said about that was damn straight and true. "Let he who is without sin.." you know the rest.

The man spent his life helping people who needed it the most, and that ought to indicate (at least it does to me) that he knew what he was talking about and doing and modeling your own life after his ain't such a bad idea.

Bullitt, in fairness to rk, I don't think your brand of Christianity is what he has a problem with. Your brand of Christian faith would, I am sure, refrain from insulting soldiers who happen not to share your faith. Your brand, presumably, would not frighten children with terrifying tales of pain and torture and everlasting horror, and then use that fear to underpin a 'moral code' that seeks to dictate every aspect of life, right down to the marriage bed.

The problem isn't Christianity, or religion, (though as most of you know, I'd prefer to live in a world without religion) rather the problem is a particular type of person/culture and how that transforms Christianty into a repressive and, I personally think, dangerous creed. This holds true for most religions. We've seen how such a cultural interpretation of Islam can lead to repression, violence and arrogant assertions of absolute truth.

Rk has a tendency to lump them all together in his posts, but I very much doubt he lumps them all together in his mind. We engage in shortcuts, and after a while, it's easy to stop putting in the same caveats every time.

Oh I know Dana, I'm not trying to get on his case or anything. I'm just not a fan of some of the broad sweeping statements, etc.

Exactly. I see this all the time at my school. I go to a private Christian college and it seems to draw some very close-minded and conservative borderline fundamentalist folks. Which is fine, people can believe what they want. But when they start discriminating against others and act like they are a cut above the rest, etc., I take offense.

There are roughly 2.1 billion Christians in the world. To say anything that includes "all", and for that matter probably the word "most", is silly. That's 2.1 billion humans, and accurate generalizations are almost impossible.

All Christians believe in Jesus. :p

I agree with Dana on this, Christianity/Islam/etc isn't the problem, it is the people that control those religions.

Do all, or most, Christians do the stuff that rkzenrage is complaining about? If so, then maybe it's not so silly. If not, then they aren't the subject of the complaint.

Couple of examples:

The treatment a soldier receives when s/he is diagnosed with PTSD. An unconscionable number are treated as cowards or traitors, broken down in rank, and given dishonorable discharges. This means no help from the V.A., either.

Not that help from the V.A. is all that great. There are endless examples of wounded and/or disabled soldiers getting sub-standard care from the VA and over-burdened military hospitals.

Soldiers in the field in Iraq and Afganistan often have inadequate supplies and armoured protection, although I hear that's gotten somewhat better.

Etc. etc., etc.

Glad to hear that you love Christians, BTW. :eyebrow:

It's odd. A group of people choose to classify themselves as separate from the rest of humanity, but they also want immunity from criticism - because they claim that there are no defining characteristics to their classification.

If you don't have any characteristics, then you aren't a group. If you do, then you are subject to criticism.

Also, I think its high time we heard moderate Christians condemning, publicly and boldly, the behaviour and attitudes of the fundementalists....

Yeah, tell that to the moderate Muslims too... yeah right. :headshake

I am married to one, my closest friend, many of my other friends are and many in my family are you fucking simpleton.
They all know how I feel and what I do to fight what "The Church" does and support me because they know that they hypocrisy harms the religion far more than anything else.
Precisely, you don't say homosexuality is a sin, don't use contraception if you need it, breech church and state, threaten kids with hell or use to bible to justify hitting them or push your religion on others... I can give a fuck what you believe.
We ALL believe things that are wrong, everyone.

rk I don't actually think we should be telling moderate christians to condemn their fundamentalist brethren more thoroughly I hear them condemning bigotry in the fundamentalist congregations all the time.

(but I also hear/read a lot of moderate moslems condemning fundamentalist Islamists....which was my point.)

Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father." But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead." (Matthew 8:21–22)

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

"For I have come to turn `a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'" (Matthew 10:35–36)

"From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law." (Luke 12:52–53)

"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." (Mark 13:12–13)
"Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword."
Matthew 10:34

- Matthew 26:52
"... all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

No they don't. If the complaint says all, most, or just Christian, then it is silly and unfair.

Separate? No, being a Christian doesn't separate them from the rest of humanity any more than driving a red car does.
Horseshit, you are trying to say all Christians are the same, because they are Christians... all Christians do the same things, think the same, act the same. That's patently ridiculous.
Are all Texans the same, think the same, act the same? I think not.