They hunted and fished, for food and clothing. They used trees and rocks for shelters and tools.

That is the very definition of a relationship with nature. For them to be "green" do you think they should have sat around starving to death in the snow because they didn't want to use the land? Damn buffalo ate stuff too. Damn birds and coyote. Damn plant life.

:headshake:

I can't believe I'm even arguing this point. It's ridiculous.

Come now, they burned the landscaped, over hunted their lands, droves whole herds off of cliff sides, and massacred any neighbors that posed a threat to their hunting grounds? That is living in harmony?

Here are some quick links for you.

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1...ndians+harmony

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles...ton112205.html

http://www.reason.com/news/show/30146.html



It is not an argument, it is an education.

Whew. I'm glad we (they) slaughtered them (us) and stopped them (us) from bastardizing our (their) land.

Long live the American Holocaust, so people like Coign can feel big and strong. Your solely opinion articles mean nothing to me. Why do you want to fuck up a nice thread and a nice site anyway? Can't stand it, can you?

..

Sorry dude. Those are pretty weak arguments in the face of reams of historical evidence to the contrary.

He's right in that the plains Indians used all resources at hand, then moved on down the trail. They were nomadic because one spot wouldn't sustain their lifestyle for long. Of course they were limited in number, and the area they left would recover fairly quickly, so they could return to that spot on their next tour.

Kind of like Lumberjim and jinx following the Greatful Dead.

Only the Indians didn't leave such devastation in their wake. :lol2:

...nor broken hearts!

My argument is not that we didn't mess them up. I am not denying a Holocaust. I think it is a sad day in mankind's history. So is slavery, so is the many other atrocities that great, great, ancestors of both you and I have caused in the past. Damn the Egyptians for chasing us out of the valley.

But I would make this "history altering" claim if you said the pilgrims and Indians got along. Or if you claimed Columbus was a great explorer and not a land raping pirate out looking for more coastal lands to plunder.

I am not anti-Indian, just anti-false history. And saying the Indians lived in harmony with the land is only because the could not screw it up any more with the technology they had. But they made an good attempt at it.

It is not that I am trying to rain on anyone's parade but why don't people get taught the truth [in school and media]? Our history is one filled with hate, rage, destruction, abuse, and destroying everything around us. If we refuse to see where we have been, how will we ever rise above our past to a more civilized world?

Skip this post Shawnee.
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...just wounded knees.

Where are your reams of historical evidence? I did an opposite search and didn't see any evidence in the top hits.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...ny&btnG=Search

I did find a site briefly talking about countering prejudice against American Indians and Alaska Natives. They had this to say:

http://www.ericdigests.org/1997-2/antibias.htm

Hmm, are they saying that you are not being taught how the Indians actually lived? Don't buy into the myth.

As for the lack of smiles in everyone depicted in old photographs, regardless of their culture, it has nothing to do with the general cheeriness of the people being photographed, it has to do with the limitations of the film back then. The exposures were extremely long, people had to sit absolutley still for upwards of a minute at times. You cannot hold a smile that long with out it looking like a horrific grimace.

Try it if you can get your digital cameras on a tripod in a darkish room and you can set a 30 second exposure.

And as for "the Indians" living in harmony with nature that idea is fairly simplistic mainly because it presupposes that "the Indians" were a homogeneous group who all shared the same culture. I'm sure there were a few Indians who didn't finish all the food on their plate, and who didn't mind torching an enemy's camp even if it meant that all the resources that went into making that camp were destroyed.

But when has a lack of facts and personal experience ever stopped anyone from expressing their opinion on the internet?

Aren't there a few Indians STILL ALIVE? The conversation seems to be as though they are extinct.

Were they forced to be nomadic because of their lifestyle (hiding from enemies too) or were they concerned about "nature" and therefore nomadic by choice?

Absolutely Native Americans warred with each other, killed critters, and other unpleasant things.

My problem was with Coign looking at these pictures and commenting that it is a romanticization of a culture that was savage. He used "they" referring to NAs as if they were a homogenous group. A homogenous group of land-rapers and savages.

Another side of the culture is the respect for nature, as a whole, the awe of their gods (i.e. nature), loyalty to the tribe and family, and an inner peace with the ways of life and death.

When I look at these pictures, of course I romaticize the Native Americans. As a societal victim of genocide, they don't get the kind of press that African Americans, or Jews, or Rwandans, but I can bet the fear of the unfathomable concept that someone wants to wipe out you and your loved ones and your entire way of life were comparable.

My grandpa once said he never felt closer to God than when he was on the lake, fishing and thinking. I tend to feel that I got a lot of traits from him, and that his traits came from his ancestors.

Romanticize away. Give this culture some respect, it is no less a deserving object of this diversity thing you hear about in every seminar, lecture, class, and whatever other venues you can think of. It's a deeply beautiful culture.

As a society we have not cared for a long time, we have swept the issue under the rug because it is hard to look at and is so easily dismissed due to the current culture of the Native Americans, living on reservations or trying to assimilate: a calm demeanor, an attitude of seeming defeat that arises from an inner strength I think most of us couldn't understand. And we don't like to ever look like the "bad guys."

Though everyone is entitled to their opinion, I don't know that it would be met with such complacency had Doign walked into a thread about slavery and said something that amounts to the slaves being bastards and getting what they deserved.

Can't we just appreciate the beauty?