Since nature is something that comes from the earth, humans, cities, and civilzation are all a part of nature. This effectively renders the term meaningless.

Disagree. Civilization, as defined by the American Heritage dictionary at least, is "A condition of human society marked by an advanced stage of development in the arts and sciences and by corresponding social, political, and cultural complexity."
When that condition results in people becoming unaware (whether deliberately or not) of the forces controlling the world outside their civilization, they are 'removed from nature'.

I stand by my original comment. I think. :whofart:

In what way are humans and civilization not a part of nature? They affect it more than anything, AND they were created by it, AND co-exist with everything else that was created by it.

That sort of thinking only serves to advance the idea that humans are evil. Your definiton of nature is "not human" (correct me if I'm wrong). That's silly.

Other organisms also do things that are to the detriment of other organisms. In fact, I'd say nearly every one of them does.

If anything, we are <i>more</i> aware of the forces controlling the world than other animals, because they don't know as much about science as we do.

Not to presume to know another's thoughts ... but I think he means "nature" in the sense of "not created by the hand of man".

Civilization is, as far as we understand it, part of the natural growth of society ... but it isn't "natural."

Point taken. I have to back off, but only a little. I would amend my statement (to the horror of my journalism profs) to say, "Civilization, at its most advanced, tends to isolate humans from those factors which govern non-civilized beings." This leads, in turn, to a desensitization that is DE-evolutionary, in my opinion.

Geez. You're backing me into a hole, cut it out. lol

Another point of contention - I think we overestimate our effect on the rest of the world. We certainly try hard enough, but one good plague, seismic event, or climate change could crush our species as surely as any other species. The thing we're best at is endangering our own existence. I say drill the hell out of Alaska, it'll live.

I'm gonna get dinged on "de-evolutionary", I just know it.

Yeah, that's what I meant to say. :) I think that's silly.

Why not?

Do you mean evolutionary in the scientific sense of the word, or in the change/progress sense of the word?

If we're so good at endangering our own existence, then how come we've come to inhabit virtually every corner and climate of the world?

Of course there are many potential natural disasters that could be very detrimental to us. But other animals are at the exact same risk.

Anyway, don't think I'm attacking you. I just find the subject interesting. :)

I can't prove it but I'll bet a years pay the people wrote that don't live in south central, LA or Bedford-Sty, NY. The people that do are NOT more civilized than the folks down on the farm. :cool:

Here's a handful of city-seeds. Plant 'em and see what happens ...

What we have here is a failure to communicate. English has the terms to express what you're trying to here, but it's clumsy at best with the customary vocabulary.

If I'm understanding your train of thought, you're saying "Plastics are natural because they contain long chains of carbon and hydrogen."

They're natural because they're made up of elements found in the earth. Elements that exist in nature. The fact that an animal that comes from nature messed with it shouldn't "taint" it.

Is oxygen unnatural because it's created by plants from carbon dioxide?

Define "unnatural" then.

Homosexuality! (slang runs away quickly )

That's what I'm saying. The word is meaningless!

Oxygen is natural because it "comes" that way ... two molecules of O, stuck to each other. It's not FORCED into that configuration by photosynthesis.

Consider ... Uranium, naturally occuring element.

Plutonium ... only exists because man tosses additional neutrons in Uranium's general direction which are absorbed by the nucleus, creating this new artificial element. The trans uranicelements IIRC (it's been a good 25 years since I did any hard science), are similarly constructed -- Don't occur in nature, some only exist briefly in the lab.

When the whale uses it's penis to make another little whale, that's part of the process of nature.

When Uncle DuPey uses an assortment of hydrocarbons to make paint and plastic and a myriad of other things that make living better, that's chemistry ... and while the components are organic molecules, it's not natural, dammit!!