Yep, America is screwed no matter what we do.

We could have these people in 5-star hotels in Cuba and someone would complain that the shrink-wrapped pillow mints we are offering the prisoners are too hard to open.

The detainees are being held not so much for what they have done but for what they know. Once its determined through rigorous interrogations that they don't know anything, they are released irrespective of whether or not they took up arms against US troops. Interrogation is not an art - its a science - it is very easy (with this many detainees) to figure out who knows something and who doesn't.

This is war, people. What would you do if you were in charge - that is what I would like to know. I wish to be as respectful of international law as the next guy but if 8 people tell me (independently) that prisoner X knows where Osama is, then prisoner X ain't going anywhere till he coughs up the goods or until Osama is neutralized. When the war is over, we can all go home again.

If you think the death of Osama would end this 'war', you're at most half as smart as I thought you were. The very nature of what's going on not to mention asymmeterical war in general means that torture is at best, counterproductive and lets not mince words, what goes on in that place is state-sanctioned torture plain and simple, just as bad as Saddam's or Kim's or Pinochet's torture.

I don't think that the war will be over anytime soon much less when Osama is neutralized. I actually think all hell is going to break loose once we capture him and hope we have the good sense to make him "disappear" rather than have him do the perp walk. The last thing we need to do is make a martyr out of our enemy's hero. I was giving an example that if someone did know where he was than he wasn't going home until he told his captors where he was.

I later said that when the war is over, we can all go home.

But, you didn't address my question: what would you do if you were in charge of managing these people and your loyalty (try not to choke) was to the people of the United States. What do you think John Kerry would do had he been elected. At some point, all this criticism needs to evolve into an alternative and the downside of the alternatives needs to be ackknowledged.

That is completely irrelevant.
Of course. All the people in Gitmo are "desert Arabs". How could I be so blind. All is well.

The only way not to make Osama into a real matyr is to have him die free of kidney failure.

The difference is whether you look at the long term of the short term. In the short term you might catch the leader(s) of Islamic Terrorist Group #1532 and stop a bomb attack in X. On the downside the actions of the US since the 9/11 attacks has inflamed world opinion, galvanised the Islamic world's opinion of the US and alienated traditional allies. In the long run, which is better at keeping america safe?

Our actions prior to 9/11 didn't exactly prevent 9/11. Clinton (I don't blame him for Sep 11 nor do I question his tactics) used a much more targeted approach and didn't alienate anyone in the process and look where that got us.

These people have been after our asses since the 70s if not longer and it doesn't seem to matter how "politely" we fight back - they still come at us harder and harder. They attacked when Carter was president, when Reagan was president, When Bush's I and II were president and when Clinton was president. Over that range of Commanders in Chief, we have fought the fight any way you can imagine but the resolve of the terrorists has not diminished in the least.

So, given that, how do you suggest we defend ourselves?

Uhmmmm, work toward energy self-sufficiency here at home via synfuels, alternative energy supplies, and tax breaks for those companies which come up with more efficient ways of using non-renewable resources? That way we wouldn't have to meddle with the Mid-East. Nah, too obvious! :eyebrow:

"Desert Arabs" is a convenient term and now politically correct?....but hey does anyone remember the college students that hit the slammer when trying to register for a new semester? Do you remember the American Arab dropout rate from american civilian and agency pressures? No? Was that too long and inconvenient ago? All the warrents posted over addresses that weren't up to date? Please....Arrests were made here FIRST. And yes at times THEY WERE completely random....so don't even begin to tell me, as I was on the board of the _ _ _ _ at that time having a very difficult time ........ Powerless. Many average kids suffered in almost every major city.....just trying on a new semester...these were Americans.....maybe even your neighbors. Please...desert arabs whatever.... In New York random people were found and taken as a clear numbers issue.. let's just not get into this until you know what you are saying. :yelsick:

We were talking about Git-mo flip, so you are welcome to shut up at any time.

Oh was I too direct......did I not throw in enough racist slang?

I think the incidents Flip cites are quite relevant to the Gitmo discussion. She is talking about innocent people with Arab surnames who were wrongfully arrested or discriminated against. People are upset about the Gitmo situation because of the possiblity of the wrongful detention of innocent people. If the people at Gitmo are enemy combatants, and I'm sure many are, then the US is obligated to treat them under the rules of the Geneva convention. It's not.

A terrorist attack is designed to prove the vulnerability of an enemy and goad the enemy into an action which decreases sympathy for them among moderates. Their goal is to play the matador, with flashy, dramatic stabs resulting in powerful lunges in the wrong direction.

What do we do? I'm no genius. The solution to terrorism isn't likely to show up on the pages of the Cellar. But if you act out the caricature of the "Great Satan", the moderates will start to secretly root for the terrorists, and the borderline people will join them. A war in the Middle East is much more than a military exercise, it really is a war for "hearts and minds". In this war, even more than in all others so far, the US must be scrupulously and dramatically ethical, moral, and fair. Otherwise we are like Mickey with the axe in Fantasia.

Mexicans that illegally immigrated to New York are also missing, and their families in Mexico that were expecting the monthly supplemental U.S. dollar are also curious about their whereabouts. People are missing.....what happens when someone in your life is taken? Gitmo is a SHAM any way you slice it.....that's it.

Given the extreme reluctance of the administration to release identifying information on the people in Gitmo, why do you say they're all desert arabs?

First of all, you could take your political correctness here and, you know, shove it; but what term would you use for Arabs who live in the desert?

But secondly, do you think people in the US arrested with Visa problems wound up in Git-mo?