We're in odd art times. Static "Good old fashioned fine art" doesnt reflect contemporary cultures anymore than a horse drawn plow. That's not to say that the history of western art can't or shouldn't inform contemporary work- its pretty important to be conscious of the history of your field. But I think its exciting that artists are thinking beyond oil painting and taking on imagery, ideas and daring to expand the materials and technology they work with. I think good art challenges and explores the way we understand the world, our selves, and in Creed's case, the perceived authorities of the individual artist and the institution of the gallery. I don't think its his coat. I think it may be his politics. Is a gallery a temple or a forum?:)

I think you're right-on about what art is, warch. The question, I guess, is this:

how much can a room with lights that go on and off challenge your perception? Sure, you can call it "challenging the notion of what is art" - but where do we draw the line?

Tony posted an IotD a while ago of Wolfgang Flatz. I'll let you click the link and find out what all happened.

Is this still art? Would it be art if he hung himself from the crane and defecated onto the street below? Where is the line drawn? Sure, that challenges the institution of traditional art - but it's still just a guy shitting on the ground. Or a guy dropping a dead cow onto the ground. Or a room with some flashing lights.

Where is the line drawn?

So in this case, the actual art is the room COMBINED with the furor and publicity surrounding it, which is all by the design of the Turner folks AND the gallery?

In which case the Cellar has now become an unwitting participant in the whole thing.

I dunno. After saying that movies aren't much art, I gotta say that "South Park: Bigger Longer and Uncut" is the final say on that sort of meta-art. It accurately predicted the furor over itself, built that directly into its plot, and answered it. That should have closed the door on the "meta" 90s in which even shows like <i>Roseanne</i> blatantly knocked down the 4th wall and referred to itself and interacted with the audience.

Cool jackets are so 80s and meta-art is so 90s...

I believe Cartman would say, "This sucks ass!"

My Queen did art school (Syracuse). She mentioned her frustration with a video project, which she didn't have a clue about. The most praised effort in the class was a guy sitting in a chair, in a darkened room, watching the rain hit the window for a couple hours. She also mentioned an assigned project where the students randomly stalked someone following them from a mall, around town and home where they knocked on the door and attempted an interview. Now that might reveal something!

Where ever you draw it. Is it art? Marcel Duchamp installed a urinal on a Paris gallery wall in 1919 and called it "Fountain". He nominated it as art. It wasn't the object's beauty that motivated him but the absurdity of the place "Art" has in relation to life. And he had a wicked sense of humor.

Art is not by definition good. So who decides? Who else? Does anything go? is there an authority? Art in a democracy. Its our optimistic value of individual freedom and belief in innovation.

Artist have been wrestling with breaking or blurring the boundary between art and life since Duchamp.- So you have old Wolfgang over there hanging and mutilating...I'm personally not interested in sharing his experience. But I'll defend his right to. I am turned off by shock tactics-adolescent humor. Its American Pie II.

Yet I appreciate the photos of Andres Serrano- He created the highly controversial Piss Christ. The image is haunting and raises some serious considerations of religious experience and organized religion.

So of course we get into public funding, NEA. Poor NEA. I personally think freedom and artistic expression is essential and am willing to financially support it. Even if I don't agree with or like the artists funded.

Well, yes. and all our individual histories- our unique understandings of awards, lightbulbs, white museum walls, elitism, darkness, young Scottish men, hip jackets,...But I'd have to say that the cellar is pretty witting- always ready to get a discussion going. just when will this thread careen?

Here's my performance art joke: Q. How many performance artists does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A. I don't know. I left.

I dunno. But for a fine example of a thread that just cannot die, please take a look at the National ID card thread.

As for rights and whatnot - absolutely. It just boggles my mind how people can take something simple like, say, a pencil, and stick it in a bag and go "this is art." Man, it's a pencil in a bag. Those would have to be some pretty awesome lights in that room if they were going to challenge my perception. That's all I'm saying. I just think that "art" is being overused to describe anything.

P.S. - hey Tony, is my tag gonna say "Moderator" until I change it? I can't get like the default back or anything? Maybe jaggypoo knows about this?

And thus the thread is hijacked! Yes, you'll have to enter a custom user title. Sorry.

That's it, art is what you declare it to be. There has been this belief in society that if something is popular it must be bad. And for the most part, for the educated elite, that's true; if it's popular, it's directed at the masses.

And at the same time, there's this thinking that if something is incomprehensible, it must be good. That's the part I find silly. If I didn't get it, it wasn't meaningful to me, period. If I don't get it, it's damn close to worthless to me. Sorry.

But if someone explains it to me, and enlightens me, that's a whole 'nother story; that can be the best possible experience.

:p OK.lets make art! identity is the concept...the white gallery walls, covered with a myriad of methods/tactics of identification of the same individual...or arranged in order of their invasiveness or fallibility?

signatures, photographs (showing ears), neighbor's word, DNA, baby footprint, retinal scans, dental records, family bibles, finger prints, passports, surveillance camera footage, notarized documents, desk nameplate, what else...?

How about the hangnail I just clipped off? That thing was buggering the hell out of me, but in a very beautiful, challenging way. :)

Right fucking on. That's almost exactly what I was trying to say, but because I'm doped up on cold medicine, I'm having trouble expressing myself clearly today. Brain is just not functioning correctly. But you're absolutely right. Someone makes something that's stupidly simple and incomprehensible and people go "ooh, what a genius" - this is the thing I don't get. He pooped in a jar! It's not THAT cool!

If you swear its yours! :)

(Your Dham toenail that is)

Fuck yes, it is.

Good enough? :)

Exquisite! we'll give it the mystique of big A Art.

Uhm. I haven't clipped my toenails in like 4 years. That little hangnail though, it sucked.

I was originally thinking toenail (WOW! warch is PA SIGH CHICK!), that then I realized that I had just clipped off a hangnail on my left thumb, so I went with that. I figure that if I surrounded it with some lights that went on and off, I could sell it for some big money...

(p.s. - that's "psychic" for those that didn't get it)