My kids are 10 and 12. Last Christmas, we had our niece and nephew out for a visit along with my SIL. They're going through some crappy family issues right now WRT divorce and custody fights, but as far as SIL knows, they're doing OK. Well, my niece and nephew decided to relieve my children of some of their belongings while they were visiting. Not a big huge deal, my kids are spoiled rotten and have more than they need...but that's not the point. My kids did notice their stuff missing shortly after the others left.

So my 10 year old son calls up his 7 year old cousin, and says he knows just what to say..."Hey D., I hope you're having fun with my Lego men." D'oh, so the little guy admits to stealing...says he feels real bad and he'll give it back next time he sees my son. They live about an hour away so it'll be a while. Actually, never, most likely.

Having been victims of theft, I seriously doubt my children will ever steal anything themselves. They know, it hurts.

Perhaps empathy is an important thing to teach, right alongside ethics.

Prayers for you all, who have misbehaving, thieving children -- I was one, myself. In 1978, I stole Yoda! Got caught, too. Had to give him back and apologize and all that....to this day I can't stand Star Wars. I think that's why!

Oh I used be bad for that sort of stuff as a youngster. Even as a teenager, I was a bit of a tea-leaf. Generally, this involved nicking money, rather than stuff. It would never have occurred to me to take someone's things. But, goin into mum's purse and nicking a couple of quid for cigarettes? Yeah, that was me.

Did do a very short spate of shopliftin as a teenager, mainly make up and the odd bit of cubic-zirconia jewellery from the stands. I remember the first time I saw my best mate lift stuff. We'd been into Whittaker's lookin at the jewellery stands and there was a little cameo brooch that I adored. We got outside and she handed it to me:P I couldn't believe it. I hadn't seen her take it. After that, we used to compete to see who could take the most outrageous stuff.....who could take the most outrageous risks....I got quite good at it. I'm pretty sure I could still go into a shop and come out with stuff and not have a single person see me. It's a skill :P

Of course, I wouldn't do it now. But...when I was in my late teens/early twenties and had no income....well, a pot of nivea was expensive, but absolutely necessary (moisturiser needed for eczema) so I kept that up a lot longer :P At the same time, frankly, it was somewhat necessary to make free with the food shelves of local supermarkets (as I say, living with no income).

As a kid it was more of a game. As an adult it was about survival.

Stealing from individual people though, is slightly different I think. It has more of a personal effect on the victim. I feel far more guilty about the pound coins I took from Ma's purse than for any pair of earrings or pot of nivea that came later. And I don't feel even slightly guilty about the stolen food.

I also had a similar situation with a friend. She was really good at it, where I was usually too afraid of getting caught. Once in a vintage clothing store, I tried on this lovely silk dress. Well, as soon as we got out of the store, she pulled it out of her coat and gave it to me. I could never have afforded it at the time.

MomWithTeen, it's time to start checking his sock drawer for weed and knives.

People don't need to watch as much - There are cameras now and electronic tags...


Wow those are all things I would not have guessed of you. Very telling indeed. I'm surprised that you almost condone stealing from a store versus a person - whats the difference again?

Hang on...let me get you my mailing address.

I wouldn't exactly say I condone it. You are right, however, that I do see a distinct difference between the two. It's about inflicting a personal sense of injury and trespass. Lifting things from shop shelves is still theft, but the sense of personal loss and injury that is present with burglary is not the same.

Do I think that's a sensible way of conducting oneself? *Chuckles* most assuredly not. But I wasn't exactly mainstream when I was young. I've said it before, but I slipped down the rabbit hole somewhere round my mid teens and life didn't really normalise for quite a few years.

Why do you think I am such a calm and (relatively) peaceable person now? That didn't arise from life in suburbia :P

But who owns the shop, Dana? Is there a difference morally between stealing from a mom and pop and stealing from a Wal-Mart?

Thanks wolf - thats what I was thinkin.

This is not meant to be piling on. I'm wondering if this flexible morality also serves a purpose in your politics?

I wouldn't say it's flexible morality. It might well be a different morality to the one you have.

Like I said, I take into account the personal injury aspect of the crime. The relationship between the owner and the stolen item is different depending on the context. The shareholders and board of directors of a major supermarket chain will have a different relationship with a loaf of bread on the shelves of one of their stores, than someone might have with the loaf of bread sitting in their breadbin at home. It's still a loaf of bread. It is still someone else's property. But stealing it would have a dramatically different effect on the victim of that theft in each case.

I think I understand Dana's point. I have friends who have had their houses burgled. It's not just the loss of items, but more a violation of privacy and security. For a business, it's just a financial loss.

Dana, why are you trying to position yourself as some kind of modern Jean Valjean when you were stealing lipsticks and trinkets so you could spend your money on weed or other things you considered essential?

*laughs* I am not attempting to do any such thing. The bread example was just the simplest thing that came to mind as a way of illustrating my point, in answer to questions about the difference I perceive in the different types of crime. As to why I was engaging in such nefarious doings: as I have already said, as a youngster it was something me and mates did for kicks. As a young woman it was somethng I did because I and my partner had no income and both were too proud (stupid) to admit we'd utterly failed at the living in the real world thing and go back to our parents houses as we should have done. I didn't have any money to spend on 'other things I considered more essential'. I survived on what I could beg, borrow or steal and lived one hour to the next.

Now, please don't misunderstand me. I am not in any way suggesting that this was the best response to the situation. Were I to find myself in that situation now, I'd handle it differently. Nor do I look back and see some kind of moral thief taking nothing but bread and cheese. It was what it was. I have done things in my life I am proud of, things I am mildly shamed by and things I am pretty ambivalent about. This stuff I am ambivalent about. I was foolish enough at the time to believe my options to be far more limited than they actually were.

I realize you may have had no choice in what you did from your point of view Dana, but just to say a little more on the whole supermarket chain not being personal; what about how theft puts the prices up for those people who are already stuggling to put food on the table legally? In that way, it's as good as stealing from people directly.

Personally I don't have that much of an issue with kids stealing. A lot of kids will do it once or twice, and usually get caught or just go home and feel so shamed they never do it again. For some kids it's part of the learning curve. I know when I was little, I took a couple of 1 cent lollies off the counter when no one was looking, but it was never something I would have contemplated as an adult. I just find it odd that you don't think what you've done was wrong or that it didn't harm anyone. It did mate, whether you need to tell yourself otherwise or not.

I never said that. I said I wasn't ashamed of it. I don't feel shame for much that I have done in life. I don't look back at my 19 year old self and reach harsh judgements. Nor did I say it harmed nobody. I did, however, say I view it differently to the way I would view, say, snatching somebody's purse, or breaking into their house.

I'm not quite sure what kind of mea culpa people are currently expecting, for foolish things done in youth. I do not think it is the worst thing someone can do. In certain circumstances, it can seem like the obvious solution. Obviously, I would not do the same thing now, because I am better resourced (emotionally) to deal with life and have a much better understanding of the hidden effects of such activities (such as the rising prices).

Do I regret doing what I did as a kid? No. There's very little in my life that I can truly say I regret.

Sorry, I just thought that when you said you were ambivalent about it you meant you didn't have any feeling about it either way.

I did. I don't feel bad about doing it. I don't think it was a particularly good solution, and I certainly wouldn't advocate it as a survival strategy, but I made my decisions based on the situation I was in, and my relationship with the world, at the time. I woldn't go back and change anything. I learned some valuable things during that time. I learned a good deal about how people can be when none of you have anything.

Oh well, I guess you're giving back to the community in a different way now. What goes around comes around. :)

*smiles* That's because I am no longer a fucked up 19 year old nihilist with light fingers and an empty cupboard:P


[eta] better throw in a manic depressive boyfriend on a six-month downswing and incapable of looking after himself, and a bunch of slightly dubious and even more criminally minded housemates who'd elected to 'look after' us, since we landed at their hearth. Strange days. Passed in a blur. Learned more during those years than I care to recall, of despair. But I also learned a good deal about people. I saw, and experienced, a side of life that many of my contemporaries didn't. Whilst my school mates were off in university or the world of work, I slipped through the cracks and went somewhere very different. But the people I met...look past the shambolic exterior and the faint aura of latent violence and there were some wonderful characters. I've written about them before, I'll not bore you with them again :P If I wrote about them, people would say they were fictitious, and in some ways maybe they were. We mythologise our friends to each other.

I stole things and did things as a boy also - I think most people did, but at this point in your life to look back and not feel regret, based on years of reading your posts, shocks the hell outta me. I'm still having trouble grasping the concept of "It was ok to take from someone else because _ _ _ _."
I did things as a teen and even into my early 20's that I could justify, but were still wrong nonetheless and I know that and look back, as you put it, harshly. I am absolutely ashamed of some things I did and feel regret for doing them ever time I think about them. It makes me think about thing more know than ever. I put myself on the other side of the equation more and wonder how I would feel if "that action" was done to me.

Put it another way: if you encountered a young person in a similar situation as you used to be, and they told you they were going to go steal some food, would you say, "Okay, sounds reasonable," or would you counsel them to make the better, more responsible choices that you see now that you could have made?

Well, given how many times I have already stated that I don't consider it a sensible choice and would not take that path were I in that situation again, obviously I'd counsel them against.

Precisely. I put myself in the place of the manager of a large supermarket or the shareholders of the chain and I find it very difficult to imagine that I'd be upset by minor pilfering. I may be annoyed by it. I may find it bothersome. I very much doubt I would feel personally violated. I would, however, if I was burgled.

The few things that I genuinely regret and feel shame for are those things that have affected other people at a much more personal and direct level.

And that, my friends, is the last I intend to say on the subject. I am quite comfortable with who I am and how I got here. I am more than content to be my own judge thankyou.

Sorry Dana - I didn't mean to come off as judging you - I guess I just had this perception of you and what you shared really didn't fit with it. I'm sorry if I was outta line. :(

I have actually mentioned this stuff before, you must have missed it :P

I'd give them some food and then worry about giving advice. :lol:

Stores factor the cost of shoplifting ("shrinkage") into their prices. So if you don't steal, they're getting money for free. They're stealing from you. So always steal about 1.5% of your groceries by value. It is the only honest thing to do.

[ : throws cat amongst pigeons : ]

I get what your saying Dana. It's not, "Hey it's okay to steal food kids, it doesn't hurt anyone but Fat Cats!" What you're saying is it doesn't have the same personal effect as - say - befriending old Mrs Jones and lifting a fiver a week from the stash in her tea caddy. It's not about whether stealing is wrong, it's about whether some thefts have more emotional impact than others.

At that age I was busy throwing emotional tantrums and being manipulative to get what I wanted and confusing sexual attention with love. I started drinking as an excuse for the things I wanted to do and wasn't brave enough to admit to doing sober. I put myself in danger in quite a few ways in my late teens, but nothing I couldn't pretend hadn't happened in the morning.

Your 19 year old self sounds so much more fucked up than mine - and yet you learned from it, moved on and are at a very good place in your life. Mine was a less scary form of fucked-uppery to outward appearance (i.e. parents, employers), but I believe I am still dealing with issues I had then.

Excellent.


@ Sundae. Oh I dunno *grins* I suspect me an' thee were both on a par we just expressed it in very different forms of madness:P Wolf, in a way, nailed it somewhat for me. Not now, but at the time. The Jean Val John thing? I escaped life by becoming my own anti-hero. I remember, very clearly, as a young woman trying to project a kind of restless energy and disturbing undercurrents. *Shrugs* worked for me :P It was only really as a grown-up looking back that I realised I was actually as wild and leftfield as I had so wanted to be. At the time I desperately wnted to break out and away. Drop out totally and utterly and follow a life without boundaries. All fed into with 60s imagery and a love of Bob Dylan. I wanted to be wild. I felt wild inside. I wanted to make who I was reflect that maelstrom. But I didn't see it that way. I just saw it as wanting to have fun and wild adventures. I wanted to be part of a wild scene, right at its centre.

Everybody else (discount anyone living the 9-5 life frm this, I saw that as the ultimate defeat) seemed to be having a wilder and more fun time. I wanted the free-form student life, without the studies :P It's only really as an adult I see how close to what I wanted my life actually was much of that time. It's a little like looking at a photo of yourself at 18 and thinking "Why couldn't I see then that I was beautiful?"

So, stuff like the stealing? Honestly, what I remember, I remember with access to the thrill that accompanied it at the time and my own sense of pride as I 'beat the system'. Stupid? Yeah. But I know what was going on in my head at the time. I like recalling those times. The sharp edges have been blunted by time and what's left is just the landscape of young adulthood. A pleasant place to visit.

Particularly pleasant since I gave up all semblance of wildness long ago. I kept hold of some of the eccentricity though. Why the fuck not, I earned it :P

Oh, the moral bravery of these stalwart netizens, the Churchill-esque fortitude to stand in the face of the enemy, the creeping fungus of moral ambiguity, to strike out true, each keystroke falling like a hammer of doom upon the sickly, scab-encrusted slime weasel of ethical corruption, shining a beacon of truth and goodliness, what valor is diplayed by these, who seek to cast out the devils which whisper insidious lies into the innocent ears of our young ones; never has better time been spent on typing things, which few have the courage to post--I applaud thee!

Talk to the hand

and when the communities accepted morality drops to a certain level you get to buy your bread at a 50% mark-up at the minimarket because the supermarket option is gone...

You mean like when a 17 year old girl gets pregnant?

Update on "Why is my daughter stealing?" - To make a long story short, I am no longer "Brett's honey", we aren't divorced but we have been separated for close to two years now. However, I do have an update on his daughter's behavior, and that is the reason for my addition to this conversation. The stealing when she was 14 did not just "go away". Her Dad and Grandma pretty much ignored and made excuses for the stealing (They are the only two adults who have ever been in her life until I came along.) Upadate on her - she just turned 17 and has been working part time job at a drug store for about 8 months. About a month ago she was charged with embezzlement by that store. Apparently a customer lost his wallet in the store, she found it and is seen on a security camera putting it under a counter, but at some point either removed the money from it or took it back and pocketed it....I'm not sure of the details. That was the story by the time it got to me, anyway. I did not know that stealing a customer's property would be an embezzlement charge - anyone know if that is correct?

So.....to the Mom with the son who has sticky fingers, deal with it now! I know that you are, by your comments, but I did want to update this story after I saw your posts and I had just heard what happened with my step-daughter. Good luck to you.

I check in to the cellar regularly, but my internet access has been sporadic and I have been BUSY. Happily busy with a brand new grandson! Christopher Anthony was born June 17th, weighed 6 lbs. 14 0z., healthy as a horse, and is the most beautiful baby ever born! Him, my son and daughter-in-law (22 & 19 yrs old) are living with me right now and I'm loving it.

Dana,

I understand what you're saying, I managed a Pizza Hut for 7 years, and my quarterly bonuses were a large part of my income and were based on things such as food costs, so when people stole from the restaurant or left without paying, in a big way it directly affected me. However, it did not bother me nearly as much as when my apartment was broken into and my TV, stereo, etc., were stolen. HUGE difference in how I felt...........

Thanks for the update HoneyGrandma!
If you think you might have time to drop by you can always ask UT to change your username. I for one love the fact the Cellar lets me hear from people with different life experiences than mine.

Sorry to hear about your ex's daughter. I can genuinely understand the temptation. I try to lead as moral a life as possible but if I found a wallet in the pub tonight and I knew it didn't belong to one of the regulars, I'd be sorely tempted. In fact I can even think of one of the regulars who I'd be happy to relieve of some money, but that's personal and a whole other issue (he was so rude to me last night!)

It's a shame she wasn't burned by her earlier encounters, or she might not be facing a criminal conviction now. It's a heavy weight to carry around with you, even without a prison sentence.