Why can't some people just see that the pictures are funny, the thread was funny, and nobody was bashing the military? Apparently there are some out there that have never heard the phrase, "If you can't say something good, don't say anything at all"!!! If I were to make a comment such as "I bet if a certain someone shoved a lump of coal up his butt he would shit a diamond", would that fall under not saying something good? Oh well, one can't always stick to saying the nicest things.
Can someone please end this thread with a good joke somehow involving large quantities of foam? Oh yeah, gen131 thanks for well put lessons on tact and military bearing. Too bad that seemed to have zero impact on it's intended target!

Funny and Serious
 

Ok, to get the obvious out of the way, this is really funny, especially the images of the foam releasing out of the hangar. :lol:

Now for the serious part: I've been a firefighter for...a while, and I joined the Cellar just so I could reply to some of the crap on this post. As somebody else pointed out, the foam is AFFF, typically used to suppress ignition of combustible fluids (more on that in a moment), especially JP and gasoline, where the vapors are explosive and heavier than air (thus they can obtain a vapor density sufficient to be combustible). The goal of AFFF is NOT to combine with (i.e. emulsify) the fluid but to sit on top of it and smother the fire by dispersing the vapors and limiting atmospheric esposure to the liquid, which limits evaporation, which means it can't burn (I'm skipping the Junior Chemistry on exothermic oxidation reactions :eyebrow: ). The surface tension of the bubbles further suppresses other chemical reactions which can allow spontaneous oxidation and combustion (in other words, some emulsification is a good thing). Of course, the mass of the foam and the relative temperature differential also plays a significant part in limiting oxidation as well. So, for those of you who just had the lightbulb go off in your head, yes AFFF is also effective at suppressing class "A" fires. The reason it isn't more widely used for class "A" fires (structure fires, in particular) is a complicated issue, although apparatus manufacturers (most notably Pierce) has been trying to convince more fire companies of the significant advantages of fighting all class A and B fires with AFFF. My recollection (although someone else can correct me on this) is that AFFF is NOT electrically conductive and therefore can also be used on class "C" fires. Again, I don't know that for sure. Class "D" fires (combustible metals) are not candidates for suppression with AFFF.

Anyway, AFFF is typically fractioned at 1-4%, depending on the situation and application, although some fractioners only disperse AFFF at one concentration for ease of use. Can you suffocate in this stuff? :mad: Hell yes. You are in soap suds, but dense soap suds, not like the stuff on the top of your bubble bath. As you can see from the runoff from the hangar, and the dispersal pattern from the nozzles, there is a significant density to the solution, which means significant air displacement, and thus significant fire suppression and cooling. I have never been in AFFF of a depth even approaching 1m (espcially in a confined space), so I can't tell you what the differential is between the top and bottom. At the depth of the solution in the hangar it would be impossible to carve out a significant air pocket to ensure survival. :eek: The good news is that you are a lot more likely to survive an AFFF near-drowning than you are a flashover.

This system was surely modified after this test to limit the total flow to ensure that a situation like the one illustrated for the test ever occurred, in case it was impossible for personnel to evacuate the hangar, or to release the foam.

Oh, and one other thing: yes, AFFF is essntially dish soap, although I believe it also contains a surfactant to ensure consistent bubble size. Being cheap by nature (AFFF is expensive), most of us in our department have acquired old Class "A" fire extinguishers (water cans) and have filled them with homemade AFFF (check the net for a recipe that suits you - I use a general purpose one because I don't know if I'll be first-on-scene at a car fire with entrapment or a brush fire).

Anyway, to repeat, the pictures are damn funny.:lol:

Hey thanks, FireFightingMan. :thumb2:
If I do the net recipe and stick it in my water extinguisher, what makes it foam when it comes out, just being forced through the nozzle at speed?

Welcome to USAvetUSAFspouse, too.

Hey, Bruce. You will get some foaming action on contact just by the force of the straight stream. However, I prefer to shake my can several times (usually while running to whatever I'm trying to put out) to ensure that I have some bubbles already in the mix.

Two things on this point: 1) You don't have an aerating nozzle on a water can. You have a straight-tip nozzle. Therefore you are not going to get the same quality foam you would if you were able to introduce air to the system as you go (the system that Pierce recommends, called CAFS introduces compressed air to the mix in your truck as it comes out of your pump, meaning that you already have foam started in the hand line, even though you might have a conventional straight-tip or combination nozzle instead of a foam nozzle). You can improve your foam by modifying your straight tip on your can to be a venturi, although I don't recommend that. 2) Just for illustration on how effective just adding soap and/or surfactant can be without modifying the nozzle, most Essentials classes (the first firefighting class someone takes) include a session where a class B fire is started in a large pan (about 6x6), and the firefighter is given a water can and ordered to extinguish the fire. Most people can extinguish the fire with one or two cans with just water (although keeping the fire from flaring up is difficult, and some trainees take three or four cans to keep the fire out). HOWEVER, with the addition of a foaming agent (AFFF, or insert your home brew here), almost all trainees are able to extinguish the fire with ONE can, AND the mix becomes extremely difficult to reignite for the next trainee.

So the REALLY long answer to your question is...you might not get "good" foam, but it appears to be good enough, and considering how cheap it is to obtain an "old" can from a fire extinguisher dealer (everyone who I know that has asked has been given one for free), fill and pressurize it (you can do it yourself since you have all the ingredients and a water can is charged with an average air hose), and the volume of agent that you can put in a can compared to your average dry chem extinguisher it's a great way to go, at least for the people I know who have seen a fire or two.

I'll leave the image of you shaking your can, to the ladies. :lol:

Class B fires, flammable liquids and gases, solvents, oils, greases (excluding cooking oils/greases in depth) tars, oil-based paints and lacquers, (yeah, I had to check) keep flaring up because the fumes are reignited by what's still burning? Do they stop flaring once the flames are completely extinguished?
I guess the AFFF would suppress the flammable vapors from reforming while you get the flames beaten down.

...and the like
 

First a CORRECTION: AFFF is NOT appropriate for Class C (which makes sense).

On to the question: Please understand that I am not 100% certain on the physics, only about 70% certain. Once you get ANY combustible burning, regardless of its class, there is a certain period of time where the surrounding environment is still hot enough to vaporize the material, which can then oxidize and thus reignite - remember, if it ain't evaporating, it ain't burning...unless it's a class D, but I'm not going to go there. This situation is especially problematic for volatile liquids because they are constantly evaporating, even at room temperature, and typically have flashpoints that are close to their evaporation point. So, once you get a diesel/gas mix burning, you are in deep crap. The gas gets the diesel hot enough to ignite. Then when you put it out, you are still at just below the flash point of the diesel...which is well above the flashpoint of the gasoline. So, it is common for the pan fire to be extinguished, only to reignite two seconds later.

The students who are successful in putting the pan fire out quickly start in the middle, then force the fire into a corner while spraying back and forth across the surface that they have already extinguished. After the fire is "out", they continue to spray back and forth across the entire surface for several seconds longer. This continued spraying 1) displaces the gasoline vapors that are continuing to evaporate so that they cannot reach a density sufficient to combust and 2) cools the surface so that less vapor is released.

In the real world this type of thing does not always happen. If the fire is in an area where the liquid is in a low spot and the sides are raised, without significant air disturbance, then the danger is real. A hangar is a great example of a setup where such reignition would be expected.

Thank you, Sir.
Now all the Cellar members are qualified for Jr. Firefighter Badges. But remember folks, if you work the siren, you can't ring the bell on the same run. :headshake

I'm sad to say that I'm so uncool I wouldn't even know where to find someone whoe could direct me to someone who knew where such an event was taking place but it sure sounds like fun.

I posted it to metachat.org and I think someone picked it up from there and slapped it up on MetaFilter. A MetaFiltering isn't quite as bad as a /.ing but it isn't insignificant either.

just keep your eyes and ears open for a foam party

http://pop.ac/portlligat_cadaques_08-23.jpg

At one point there were over 8,000 sites linking to it.:eek3:

OK, not to nitpick, but...
 

Actually, the "Siren" is called a "Cue". :right:

A Cue? :eyebrow: What do they call the bell and the different types of lights?

Another inexpensive way to get a good foam stream is to use a pesticide sprayer with a RoundUp foaming tip.
We used that to get foam to put out small fires when we were burning groves here in FL. Worked great.

OMG You're Such an Idiot
 

The bell is called...a bell. Not all trucks have a bell (I'd say that most don't :eek:. However, all apparatus that want to move traffic come with an airhorn, typically mounted in the front bumper on the opposite side from the cue).

There are various lights on a truck. There are warning flashers, scene lights, alley lights, panel lights, light towers, etc. Flashing headlights are called wig-wags. There are also headlights that "bounce" back and forth and up and down. We call those "vomit lights" because if you look at them long enough they make you want to vomit. Essentially vomit lights are on a cam that follows an "M" or "W" shape, so the light looks like it's bouncing up and down as it travels from side to side and back again.

Strobes flash without roatating. Beacons stay lit all the time, but typically "flash" through the use of rotating mirrors and possibly stationary mirrors (so that when the rotating mirror is pointed backward it is reflecting off the stationary mirrors to the forward direction).

Is there anything else I can answer for you, Bruce?

a lost technology:sniff:

The Operative Word Here Is...
 

SMALL.

Here's the skinny on brush fires. 1) Brush fires are relatively hard to extinguish because the are relatively hard to contain, and it's relatively difficult to do overhaul on them because of the magnitude of the task. The reason for that is that since the fire is out in the open with lots of fuel all around, it's difficult to ensure that an area that is burning doesn't continue to burn. Brush fires burn grass, brush, and trees for the most part. Early-ish in the Spring (or at any time in Spring when there is little rainfall) all of the deadfall from the previous Winter is just sitting there waiting to go up. That is one of the reasons why there tend to be more brush fires in the Spring in more places than later in the season, even though the ones later get most of the attention. Trees are just like the studs, joists, etc. in your house, except they're usually farther from the firefighting apparatus, which means that when we're trying to put them out we have to hand-carry the water/foam/whatever, along with the other tools necessary some distance from the rig. The other tools are typically axes and maybe saws. We have to break the wood apart to get at all the fire burning inside the tree, especially in old deadfall trees.

Now some of you might be asking yourself "Why not just let the stuff in the middle burn?" To a large degree we do. However, fire isn't an exact or an absolute thing. Not all of an area that is "burning" is actually burning. Some of it (usually most of it) won't burn at all. There will be swatches through the landscape where there is fire. The problem is that if you just let everything in the interior of the fireground burn, then the ajacent, unburned land is also at risk (since it hasn't burned...yet.

Structure fires are pretty easy - the structure contains the fire for the most part, and if it gets completely out of hand, we just "surround and drown". End of problem. We can park apparatus near the fire. We can overwhelm the fire with water (the usual approach). You can't do any of that with a brush fire.

2) Brush fires don't just burn down houses. Stupid people get thier houses burned down:shocking:. There was a study done by I believe it was the US Fire Commission or the Forestry Service that stated that of houses lost to brush fires, the most obvious factors are shake roofs or a large combustible load in contact with the house, i.e. bushes that haven't been trimmed so that they don't touch the home. Mulch does not appear to be a significant contributing factor. If you are worried about your house making it through a firestorm, TRIM YOUR BUSHES. Get them off your house. The further away they are, the better. Bushes burning allow the contact time to get your house burning. The further away they are from your house the better. Obviously in the case of a fire approaching the first priority for you and your family is your personal safety, so don't be an idiot and die trying to cut the foliage down. Get the hell out so you dont:fumette:.

3) If you want your house to still be standing when you get back, make it easy to defend. We aren't driving through neighborhoods looking to save every house. We are looking for the place where we're going to make a stand. Swimming pool with easy access: good. Clearing around the home: good. Not on a hillside: good. Brick or other non-combustible construction: good. Well-manicured property without lots of brush or other crap near the house: good. However, I have to tell you that there is one way to put your house on the "MUST SAVE" list: VOLUNTEER AT YOUR LOCAL FIRE DEPARTMENT. You will learn how to save your own house, and you will get an "in" with the people who have to decide who's house they're going to save.

No, that's plenty, thanks for the info.

And thanks for doing what you do. :thumb2:

You don't hear about citrus growers starting large fires no matter how much we burn, and we burn a lot.
We are careful and watch our fires full-time.

HUH? Holi Pet, Batman.

well what if instead of the nozzle i made the hose into a venturi?????

you can get an aerating nozzle at fireade source .com

Holy crap, 523,000 views on this thread!

Welcome to the Cellar, fredengle. :D
Fireman?

We seem to have lost all but the first photo though.

good thanks!!:p

Welcome to the Cellar, bevoer. Looks like you're off to a nice start.

Hahaha. Off to a nice start? Are you sure?

Not anymore. ;)

Thanks Bruce - I looked up the link but couldn't really tell what it was or if it was malicious.

All hidden links are malicious.

oh in that case I'm glad I found it and you killed it.

That is a pretty safe assumption.

What's a hidden link?

It didnt by any chance link to a board called AKK did it?

I saw it but didn't click the link. It was in yellow under the post. Damn...I reckon folks think we're stoopid, huh?

Nice work, Bruce. I nominate UT gives you an extra bonus this year.

If you see a hidden link Cap'n or anyone else, let a mod now via the contact us link at the bottom of the page.

Doesn't anyone else get a pop-up when they open this thread? I keep getting one from an image link in Kaken's post #69. A foam image he linked to from "Nick's Blog" keeps asking for a password every time this thread loads.
"A username and password are being requested by http://www.nickwelchbolen.com. The site says: "Nick's Blog""

Weird.

I just got a pop up when I tried to open page 5. same one as you - that is weird!

I probably display more posts on a page than you. So post 69 appears when I view most recent posts.

It's just the image kagen linked to that's doing it.

I see - so what you are saying is that I'm getting the popup when the page that post #69 is on, loads. Gotcha. If I may ask - How did you determine it was that image?

I right clicked on the page, and selected "view page source" then I searched for "nickwelchbolen." It's hard when viewing page source to see where one post stops and another begins, but it looked like it was coming from Kagen's post, so I went to Kagen's post and tried quoting it. When I quoted it, it showed that he had three images posted, even though I could only see one. One of the ones that wasn't showing up was being hosted by http://www.nickwelchbolen.com. So I figure that's what's generating the pop-up.

Got it. It was a link to a picture in Kagen4o4's post.

Excellent - now that we have that settled... what were we talking about :eyebrow:

This is the IotD that brought me to the cellar :D. Someone linked to it on another site I belong to.

Good stuffs!

stormie - me too, but it was the wtf thread that made me stay.

I get a pop up every morning when I wake up.

Very nice post with a ton of informative information. I really appreciate the fact that you approach these topics from a stand point of knowledge and information
instead of the typical “I think” mentality that you see so much on the internet these days.

I'm fond of being informed with informative foam information.

No, you just think you are fond of being informed, foam-wise.



;)

In order to truly be fond of foam, one must be informed.

Wouldn't that make one infoamed?

Sniff. Sniff.

Zombie thread. Generic post. First post.

Do I smell spam on the way?

Oh, no way. His name is Brian Tomhson. He and Bruce Smith are true red-blooded Americans, can't you tell?

Very nice post with a ton of knowledge and informative internet that you
see so much on the typical “I think” mentality that you see so much on
these days. Very nice post with a ton of information instead of information.
I really approach the internet that you approach the information. I really
appreciate these topics from a stand informative informative internet the
typical “I think” mentality that you approach these days. Very nice post
with a ton of information instead of knowledge and point of information.

You gotta lurve informative information.

No. :headshake

Wait, was that a metric ton?

This new guy, is he friend or foam?

His posts are all froth and bubble, at any rate.

VIDEO LINKS
 

It's been quite a while since I first saw this thread, and I see that the video that had been posted is now reduced to a single still. Here are several different videos of the same event -- though I don't see a single B-1 among them.

The rules say that I shouldn't post links on my first post, but I'm disregarding them under the "exigencies of the situation". I trust that the moderator will allow this to be posted.

If anyone ever looks at this (the Internet isn't REALLY forever), here are links to various videos of this, These were each valid as of 11:00 pm EST on 11 APR 2011.
-- Roy B. Scherer
-- Formerly of 95th FIS, ADC, USAF
================================
2:42 video at:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1OfLthj7nc>
Completely different video, edited, 1:07 at:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILYWJ0O__C0>
Yet a third different video, this one 5:39 and from a wider perspective, at:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpOwkchy9Bw>
And a fourth, handheld, w/audio, 2:26:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w8zORFPRfw>

And last, a fifth video shot AFTER the foam stopped, 1:29, with audio:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxNGokWXZaY>
=================================

Thanks all for your service, be you groundpounder, flyboy, jarhead, squie, or even feathermerchant . . . or a "mere" taxpayer!