That guy makes as good an example as any: why would an otherwise reputable and decent family man choose to come illegally when he would be able to provide a far "better life for his family" if he were here as a citizen? And why should we not deport him, if there is a long line of people going through the system legally who were in line before him?

No one has answered this question yet, and I don't suspect they will, as long as racial strawmen continue to succesfully deter real progress on this issue.

Your second question answers the first.

So, it's okay to break the law if it will be more convenient for you?

Maybe if I had tried that line with the judge, I wouldn't have to go to community service tonight.

I maintain that a prospective citizen who is willing to respect our laws is far more likely to add value to the society than one who isn't.

So, by association, they MUST all be wetbacks, huh? You really are lacking, MaggieL. Racism isn't your strong suit, it's your ONLY suit.

Your obsession with New Zealand is unhealthy. It seems strange to me that someone who bleats so much about about 'red herrings' and 'straw men' wastes so much effort on lines of argument that are too weak to be called 'cheap shots'.

Do you actually have anything worthwhile to say on the topic, or are you just going to sit on youir fat ass all day, slandering a whole race and anyone that bothers to question your stupidity?

I didn't say that the first answered the second.

Uh, billybob. You're welcome to rant away in the Cellar, but since you're not an American, you're opinion doesn't count, here in the US.

You accuse people of being racist and having a personal animosity/vendetta though your deductions of logic. That's easy to do when it's not your problem, but not necessarrily accurate or productive.

Sometimes a problem/solution is clearer when you stand back far enough to see the big picture, but methinks you are way to far back. :2cents:

It's not an obsession, it's just the focus of pointing out your hypocracy.

You're fine with immigration law when it results in benefits for you personally. When it works against your ill-considered ideas about how we should run our country, suddenly it's racist. And yet the laws of our country and yours are quite similar (ours actally being *more* liberal)...the important difference being that with a country many times the size of yours, with thousands of miles of land borders and an impoverished and repressive regime to the south, enforcing our laws is vastly more difficult.

Which you're pleased to claim as moral superiority. How feeble.
By your lights? No. But that's because you're not listening to anybody who contradicts you.

[HTTP faux pas; deleted double post]

As I said, we won't have direct evidence unless it gets to court, as in the case of the other article...because some twit claimed it was "racist" for a law enforcement officer to investigate a possible violation of law.

But I know Norristown. You don't. Even though you think you do. Only the other day you were flaunting your deep knowlege of US geography to "prove" we don't have illegals here, and that I don't know what I'm talking about. But as you can see, we even have them in our courts claiming they should have a reduced sentence *because* they're illegal.

"We don't have to follow the law...now let us vote."

That's priceless, coming from you. It's fairly obvious from your distorted replies to my posts that you are more interested in trying to discredit me on matters of zero relevance than in paying attention and debating like an intelligent adult.

I'd put you on my ignore list, but you amuse me. How someone of your age can have accumulated so few social skills makes you an interesting case study, unique amongst the many Americans that I talk to. I've never come across anyone, from any country, who is so determined to be obnoxious to a stranger simply because they ask her to back up her ignorance with quantifiable evidence.

How immigration law in my country compares to immigration law in your country is of "zero relevance" only as a way of protecting your thesis that "those who want US immigration law enforced must all be bigots and racists" from closer inspection.

Another distortion from MaggieL.

I've asked a few people here to back up statements that they have made.For some reason, that makes me the Great Foreign Liberal Satan in MaggieL's eyes.Perhaps because she is a racist bitch, perhaps because she is something else.I really don't care. Nowhere in any of the threads have I argued that illegal immigration is not an issue, nor have I argued that it shouldn't be enforced. What I have done is to try and rationalise a lot of the astoundingly shallow statements made by people like MaggieL, so that I may understand the 'problem' fully and decide on my private opinion.Unfortunately, this is unacceptable to MaggieL, her opinion must be accepted as gospel because she lives there and I don't. Frankly, MaggieL's little corner of the US is of little interest to me as a absolute microcosm of the situuation.She may well think that her neighborhood is typical of the US, but it isn't.

How does racism get into the illegal alien issue? What kind of idiot brings race into it?
It is so simple, want into the country, do it legally... hell it is cheaper than paying the goons that sneak people into the US and a hell of a lot safer.
You get the added bonus of not being a slimy little criminal.

I have refrained from putting up my stance yet, but... here goes nothing.

Immigration should be enforced properly. However, entering the country and becoming a citizen should be a simpler process, making it possible for legal immigration to be nearly as easy as the daunting task of sneaking in and staying in, hidden from the government. Illegals already in the country should be punished but not deported. Instead, the government should try to make it possible for the illegals already here to make their existance in the USA legal.

I agree with rkzenrage, this is not a race issue. Yes, a lot of illegal immigrants in the USA are Mexican, I'm not blind or stupid. But not all are. Immigration is not about race, it's about coming into the country. What I said should apply to Canadians, Mexicans, Chinese, British, Zimbabweans, Papua New Gueneans or anyone else who wants into the country. But still, since I'm sure some prejudiced sod's gonna try to call me racist somehow, I will make it known that my girlfriend is half-mexican. So fuck you if immigrant means Mexican in your brain, I'm far from racist.

My neighborhood is exactly representative of itself.. Earlier you suggested that I was a comfortable suburbanite holding forth on an issue that I didn't understand and that didn't affect me. Now that misconception has been debunked.

No one community can be represenatiative of the US; it's too big a place. I've certainly seen enough of it to know that, even though there are many here much more widely travelled than I. But when someone tries to impeach my opinion about illegal immigration because "you live too far from Mexico", they are not only barking up the wrong tree, they are several forrests down the pike from the right tree.

You two need to get a room.

He's not my type. :-)

He's worked very hard to find the exact bit of name-calling and misogyny that will enrage me enough to dissolve the discussion into an exchange of personal attacks, but it just hasn't worked.

For someone who's "trying to decide on his private opinon", he's certainly already blasted quite a bit of opinion about publically.

Thank you. I live in New Zealand, which you seem to think is far enough away to not understand the issues.Not only has your entire argument been pissing against the wrong tree, you are several forrests from the wrong tree, and most of the urine appears to have blown back against yourself.

No it hasn't has it? The kitchen is out back, by the way.

It was funny in a kinda sad way at first, billybob, now it's just getting older than Jordon got on the Lexington School thread.

It's clearly *possible* to understand an issue at a distance...which undermines your earlier attempt to impeach my opinion because I live in Pennsylvania rather than someplace close to the Mexican border.

I had attributed your failure to know that illegal immigration is a serious issue here (rather than merely an excuse for me inject my redneck racism into the policy arena) to being unaware of how things are here in the piedmont and tidewater areas of the Mid-Atlantic states, as opposed to being a wilful and deliberate red herring.

Maybe I shouldn't have been so charitable.

Maybe it is in your household. It's a central focus of ours, since I installed the WiFi router up in my lab and the S-band video link to the living room. I'd never have managed to be successful in my profession if I was prone to letting simple-minded sexist attacks get under my skin.

But not for a foreigner?

And you believe you are charitable?


You are a racist.

But not for a foreigner?

And you believe you are charitable?


You are a racist.

And my sock puppet is prettier than yours.

No, it's possible. You just aren't doing it.
That's because I don't have one. But you're busted.
I'm all done with this issue; there's been no real movement for days, and you just blew whatever last shred of cred you might have had.

Have a nice day.

So Ibram is not your sock puppet? For your information, I don't have a sock puppet either. If you disagree with any of the premises put forward by charlene, feel free to address her on the subject.She'd eat you.Frankly, her assertions about this board are dead on. I've never seen a forum so openly hostile to counter-opinion, nor have I seen a forum that opens a 'welcome' thread and allows it to be whored out by the regulars.

Now, as you are ready to run away without answering any questions, I'll bid you farewell on this issue.The kitchen may be the focal point in your house, but the menial tasks still await you. By the way, are you a legal resident of the US? You never did say.

I'm NOBODY's fuckin' puppet. If you would spend more time looking around this forum that you feel so free to judge, you'd know that.

No offence intended, Ibram. perhaps if MaggieL hadn't been so quick to dismiss charlene as a 'sock puppet', it would not have been neccesary to demostrate the stupidity of her actions by picking another individual at random and assigning them the same title.

Enjoy the new version of the cellar, translated for my friends in America.

I find it interesting that the person calling everyone a racist on this is the same one who has made it all about race. From what I've read, it seems that for the most part, everyone has kept it about immigration, and then when someone didn't agree, they started calling people racist and such. People are entitled to their own opinions, and I also think that judging by a few posts on an internet forum, it would be really difficult to say someone is a racist unless they actually say they are or they make comments about racial hate and such.

Thats just an observation though, take it how you will. I'm sure this makes me a racist though, somehow?:headshake

Awwww... go iron your hood....:greenface

billybob and charlene are really Dave and Jeni(sp). :lol:

What the fuck is that supposed to mean? I don't have any problem with anyone from any particular race. What I was trying to make a point about was you asked

to which I replied basically that it doesn't. The person I referred to was Billybob, because he was making it about race, not the other people posting here. If you go back and re-read the posts, you would see that he was the first one who made it about race and was calling people, namely MaggieL, racists. So that's the kind of idiot who brings race into it, not me.:morncoff:


[edit] I apoligize if I wasn't clear about that point before, but thats what I meant.