That's a little harsh Bri. I think she just wanted a receptive group of people to offload to. Is that really such a crime?

bbro. Don't be put off by this. Some of us are very eager to advise and some of us are very eager to crticise. That means we've read through your posts and formed an opinion. Take it as a mark of our good intentions.

Guys, give the girl a break eh? Many of us have come onto these boards when in distress and poured out our hurts to these pages. Sometimes, when life is a little too painful or confusing, it can help to write about them on here. It helps to hear if others have similar experiences, it helps to hear feedback. That doesn't mean one is contractually bound to taking that advice. Indeed, would it really be sensible to base life decisions on the opinions of people you've never met nor ever are likely to? People who only have the fragments of situation that you've been able to write about.

I've done it. Many of you have done it. Written about something that's really getting you down. We're a bunch of sometime friends and sometime combatants and that's what makes us a valuable resource, even if it's just a bit of banter when things look bleak.

So, in a year's time she might be here again, upset and the victim of a relationship gone wrong? The fact that she didn't heed the advice of the people here would not make her any less deserving of our sympathy in that situation. None of us know the future. None of us know the man she's talking about. We do not know that the advice we give is sound, we just know it's what we think we'd say if we had all the information.

I have a couple of rl friends who've been through some horrible times with men and flown in the face of advice they've been given. When it all went belly up for one of them, do you think rest of our little group turned our backs on them? Of course we didn't, we're mates. We did the only thing a mate can do in that situation : we got out the giant tub of icecream, several large bottles of wine and did our best to get her laughing again. That wasn't the time or the place to say we told her so.

Thanks DanaC, that's what I wanted to say, but you did it much better.

And since it is such a big deal, I am 26

If I'm not mistaken, we were (including myself) very sympathetic; Re-read the first few pages of the thread. It is the continual deflection and hedging and unwillingness to come clean and be honest that rankles me.

And, Dana, telling people what they want to hear is not advice. So, she didn't come here for advice? Then she wanted complete sympathy and agreement and yes-people. We are not supposed to point out things that may be a difficult TRUTH but may save her in the long run, we are only to murmur reassurrances and nod our heads in a consoling manner no matter what. Oh, ok. Now I get it.

Where? No, I didn't divulge my entire situation because all the reactions I have ever seen elsewhere is to tell the poster to run as fast as they can because he is in jail. I didn't want to tell my age because I expect threads saying that I am young, I don't know, etc, etc, again because I have seen it before. I have mixed up the word probation and parole.


And yes, you are right, most people were supportive and had advice that was delivered in a constructive way. That I am grateful for. No, not all of the advice posted was of the "Stand by your man" variety. It was more "look out for you and keep your eyes open" variety. And yes, there are posts that I completely ignored because to me they seemed to be an attack rather than advice. I don't see the point of answering them.

I never meant to seem deceptive or anything like that. That wasn't my intention. Maybe in this case, as you suggested, me writing it down somewhere because I don't know what kind of response I was looking for. I just needed to get it out.

bbro--I don't know you in the slightest, I only know what you have posted (and, omitted) here. My feelings come from having seen/heard this many times. These are my questions (ones you've never answered, and no, you certainly do NOT have to answer them to me or anyone but perhaps YOURSELF)

1) What number is this DUI for him? It cannot be his first. I got a DUI in '04 My first. I was not sent to jail, I was not put on probation (that was for something else) and I even got off on a 'failure to maintain distance' complaint because I didn't take the breathalizer. SO. How many DUI's are we talking? Because I have a feeling it's far, far from his first consequence of alcohol or drug abuse.

2) What did he do to land on probation? Perhaps if this was his 3rd, 4th, 5th DUI or was it something else? Maybe he did an B&E. Who knows? Doesn't really matter to anyone but you and him. Anyway--he is on probation and probation officers HIGHLY recommend that you be a very good citizen while on probation. I wonder why he messed up when he knew how seriously he was being scrutinized.

3) What did he do to fuck up probation?
And, be honest with yourself here.

4) how many times has he been married?

Probation officers are usually so overworked and overbooked that they only take real interest in those who pique the radar. WHY is the system against him? Have they dealt with him before? Do they KNOW him?

It's really no matter to me if you stay or go or sink your heart, soul and savings into this guy. It's YOU. YOU matter and I've a feeling you've given yourself away. That is what bothers me.

and, actually, I am rather reassured that you are 26. i thought you were younger.

I agree with Bri here... you seem smart and nice, but a "fixer". Not a very productive hobby/way to pick em'.
Think this through. Doing this because you won't be the last to leave is not the best way to make a decision... stay if you think it is a safe and good bet.
Do what is right for you. One day you may be doing it for your child.

1) What number is this DUI for him?
It is his second

2) What did he do to land on probation?
That was the original sentance when he was charged. He has just been fighting it a while

3) What did he do to fuck up probation?
The ankle bracelet was tampered with (broke)and he had a dirty sample

4) how many times has he been married?
None

Probation officers are usually so overworked and overbooked that they only take real interest in those who pique the radar. WHY is the system against him?
He does know a lot of people in the actual system because of where he grew up.

Have they dealt with him before?
He has never dealt with this probation officer before - he is a bit of a dick, I met him a couple of times.

Do they KNOW him?
He was in trouble for something else, but his probation officer was in a different section and thinks very highly of him and even calls to check on him even though he is all done with it.


I think what makes me seem younger is my lack of life experience. I mean, yea, I have some things, but not nearly as much as some people here.

rkzenrage - I am definately thinking it through every day.

Alcohol is a tough monkey to shake and can't be without wanting to and help.
You can be the reason for wanting to and the help, but you have to be aware the battle is never over with booze.

If you feel you're up to it, go for it, but don't get complacent, because it'll bite you on your lovely butt. ;)

There are a lot of interesting answers up there, bbro. I can read between the lines.

As someone with 7 months of probation for DWAI left, and hours and hours and hours spent in therapy, classes, community service, etc., I can say with some authority that your boyfriend has a looooong row to hoe.

If he's effing up while he's on paper and in the system, what's he going to do when he's finished his time and no one's supervising him? Right now I'm in therapy with a 60-year-old guy who shot someone over a dope deal, a couple DUI cases, several drug users who got caught doing whatever to support the habit, and 2 guys who beat their girlfriends/wives. Out of those 10-15 people, maybe 4 of them can really be said to be "trying". You can see the difference in their eyes and their body language. What's the look in your boyfriend's eyes?

bbro, this is a line to read and think about.

I agree and will.

One that says he wants to get out of this and start over. I think that is one of the reasons he wants to come down here with me so bad.

The only way he can start over and not repeat the same mistakes is to have an alternative way of thinking. The good thing about being under constant supervision is that it breaks you free of your drug at least temporarily. During the time when your access to the drug is limited, you've got to be making good habits. Can't just say "I'm not going to drink anymore" or "I will control it better". When the triggers happen that make you want to use -- boredom, stress, pain, whatever -- you have to force a new response. Eventually, assuming you stay clean, the new response can become as natural as the drug use was. It's not automatic -- it's a royal pain in the ass for many many months or even years. But it's alot better than jail.

Here's the example the counselor guy gave the other night: Remember your favorite song from high school? Even after 20 years, if it comes on the radio, you immediately go into this mental space that's associated with the song. I even get a complete scene in my mind, complete with smells, sounds, and whatever state my head was in at the time. Same thing with booze and drugs, or any habit that causes you grief. No matter how long you've stayed out of trouble or how easily you think you can handle the temptation to overindulge and fall into a pattern, as soon as you get a buzz from the substance or the activity, you rewind to the old place automatically. It's just how we're wired. It's not a conscious decision to fail, or a moral weakness, or anything else. It happens in the blink of an eye.

That's why it's so important to start making new habits now, while you're being forced by big brother to abstain. Wanting to change isn't enough -- gotta put your feet to the pavement.

mrnoodle--are you quite sure it's not a moral weakness? So very many think it is. To be fair, though, I am an addict who has had the unique experience of knowing how bone-crushingly annoying addicts can be. I've wanted to chuck a few off the roof myself. And I AM one.

I like to compare addiction to homosexuality. Both have genetic components but are still rather mysterious. Headway is being made, slowly, but attitudes, esp. American attitudes, change even more slowly. The question for both addiction and homosexuality is this: Why would anyone CHOOSE this socially unacceptable and socially painful way of life were it NOT genetically pre-determined? (please don't tell me addicts choose to lose, either.)

The argument will be that homosexuals are what and who they are but addicts can CONTROL their use, etc. I'd like every person who holds that premise to be reincarnated as an addict. It can be done, but, aversion therapy is sometimes successful with gay people, too.

But, I digress: changing your way of thinking or coping is much more difficult than snapping your fingers or clicking your ruby slippers together or having 12 weeks of intensive inpatient. It's a lot like trying to grow another brain. V. tough.

Oh, gawd...

PPS--bbro, the problem...

bbro, you are involved with a selfish, selfish substance abuser. I won't admonish you anymore because: #1) you are 26 and in control of yourself and, #2) my brand of Tough Love is decidedly NOT appreciated, esp. by Those Who Really Care, i.e., Those Who Have Not Balked At Any
Behavior, EVER (and, good luck depending on that lot when the chips are down and the rent needs to be paid, but, whatever)

The moral component comes into play the first time you use/screw/steal. Naturally, you always have a choice, but if you never take the first step down the wrong road, you don't have to worry about the 1,000th step.

Once you've done it, though, a new set of rules comes into play. I'm a christian, so in my world, we're talking about sin, grace, repentance, stuff like that. To be "set free" from sin doesn't mean that you don't have the urge to do it anymore -- to the contrary, it becomes almost an obsession, at least until you finally accept the good things you're meant for, and turn away from the bad (not an instantaneous happening -- see below). If the thing you're doing has a physically addictive quality, you compound the problem.

Use heroin as an example. The first time someone uses heroin, they know it's a bad idea. They may think it's not "sinful" in their worldview. But it is at the very least dangerous and potentially earth-shattering to themselves and those around them. Knowing that and still choosing to use is the sin -- you put your own desires above everyone else's and did something you know was wrong. It doesn't matter why.

But after awhile, you repent. You turn your back on heroin and decide to live a positive life from this moment on. You swear before all that you believe is holy that you'll never do it again. Problem solved, right? I mean, you've made the correct moral decision.

Nope, your problem is just beginning. First of all, you sold yourself into slavery. You made a deal with the devil that in exchange for a high, you would take the consequences of that choice. The price of breaking free appears to be higher than the price of staying a slave. You aren't thinking of long term consequences anymore, you're thinking of how to get rid of the pain you're feeling right now. If you please your master, you won't get beat.

Second, you're battling yourself. The good nature inside of you (which I believe is God-given, and not our own will) has atrophied for so long that it only makes occasional, if well-meaning, appearances. You've allowed your self-destructiveness to reign for so long that it's the default mode. "Doing the right thing" is as genuinely impossible as learning a foreign language overnight.

So, is every instance of buying a bag, putting something in the spoon, heating it, injecting it, and passing out a separate act of defiance, immorality, or sin? Not to me. I think it's a state of being that has to be changed. First, you have to detox. That's the easy part.

But then, you have to learn that foreign language. You have to reacquaint yourself with what is good a little at a time, and start to work those atrophied muscles. Not much at first -- even getting the synapses to fire is a good start.

Here's where people's paths diverge. My faith teaches that you are always a slave -- if not to one master, than to another. And you can't serve both. Serving your own "fleshly" desires means you can't serve good, because you don't automatically want to do good -- it has to be a trained response. (This is a debate for the religion thread at this point, but if you doubt me, watch a 2-year old who gets his/her will thwarted for the first time, or examine that first, fleeting thought in your head when someone cuts you off in traffic -- that's the default, I think).

The secular answer is therapy, self-awareness, and things like that. I don't personally go in for that kind of thing, so I can't really speak to it. But either path you choose, you have to do the same thing: Find something positive to fill the void left by the bad behavior and become the new instinct.

I have a feeling I've talked in circles or lost my original point somewhere (chalk another post up to the long-term effects of weed?)

Well, I'm not a Christian...as far as AA goes that IS a problem (though they croutch their language otherwise they ARE a Christian organization--don't believe me? Come to a meeting in the heart of Ohio and we shall see who is ridiculed--Higher Power indeed!)

Plus, the whole 13th step process sickens me---i can't take it.

Just like the gay person who never sneaks a kiss. Right. THEY always have fucking choice, too, right?

what a load.

Whatever. The bottom line is that WE DON'T KNOW JACK about the genetic components of either addiction or homosexuality, and don't hold your breath because, as much as people might lie to themselves, they don't want to know. It's all completely chock full of political and emotional BULLSHIT. Everyone needs the ability to hold that bit of denial close to themselves at night to lull them to sleep, gay bashers need to feel that homos are just disgusting people making disgusting choices and gays need to feel that it's all out of their control and ingrained into who they are. If we had a definative answer for any of these questions it wouldn't change the minds of those affected one iota. Addiction less than homosexuality perhaps, but still the same idea in there.

Everything will depend on what political party is in power when the data comes in. If it's no genetic connection and we have a liberal, it'll become ghost science. If it's completely depedent on genetics and we have the conservatives? Same story.

Everyone lies - House M.D.

Why is it that you've gone from being the picked-upon, why-is-everyone-so-mean-to-me mode that I remember from before, to this caustic, nasty shit? You are always claiming to be able to read between everyone's lines, see their hidden agenda, accuse them of misleading everyone maliciously, read crap into their posts that arent' there. Just chill. This from the ... nevermind.

WTF does any of this have to do with gays again? Like, do they have a choice whether or not they feel gay, or do they have a choice whether or not they let someone put their reproductive organ in their bunghole? I'm gonna guess your oh-so-refined answer is something like, "no"?

I'm talking about addiction. You said it was like gays, I said it was like ... well, addiction.

Meh, I'm not reading these things before bed again.

It must be this place.

Anyway, it's a personal thing. I get tired of explaining.

Sorry to get your panties in a bundle there, noodle. I didn't realize I was being so nasty and caustic. FWIW I am very, very nervous and worried lately. I feel like I'm going to jump out of my skin. I need a break.

I don't know of anyone in jail (or in trouble) that doesn't want to get out of it and many think, with just one more chance, they can start over. The problem is that wanting it and doing the work required to make the changes are two very different things.

If he merely 'wants' to change, it won't be enough. He has to examine the reasons he is addicted with brutal honesty. It will be painful. Then he has to rewrite the scripts that end in getting drunk/high with ones that end in alternative activities. This is the reason groups like AAA work for many people. People who get high often have low self-esteem and unacknowledged demons which drive them to hide in a drug or alcohol induced stupor.

And most of all, he'll have to do it on his own. You can't do it for him, or push him through it, or make him want to not drink.

Oh, and he can't run from it. Moving away won't solve the problem. The reasons for his addictions are inside him and no matter where he goes, they will still be there.

Stormie

I wonder if he is an alcoholic?
I've known guys that would get drunk every time they hung with drinkers, yet never drink at home or out with non-drinkers. It can be a social scene, trying to be one of the boys, fitting in and being accepted, sort of thing. For these lucky people it's a matter of changing environment.
Just wondering? :confused:

Alcoholics can sometimes have a lot of triggers. Not all of them can be avoided no matter where you flee.

After having been a drug user for many years and being married to an alcoholic for 18 (now separated) I have come to believe that I am "one of the lucky few" who can turn it on or off at will. Pot, coke, shrooms, meth and so on. I would do as I pleased when I pleased and then stop at the drop of a hat. This made it unbelievably difficult to comprehend that she couldn't do the same.
Off we went to counselor after counselor (lost track after 6 or 7) then AA meetings both she separately and many many together. At this point I feel very little empathy or sympathy for those who are still using or "trying" to stop. Until it is over and an entirely new pattern of behavior is established, they are still using or going to soon. My life and the lives of my children were ripped apart and destroyed by her and her fuckin drinking and drugging. NO sympathy here for any user - period. Get clean and I might try to cut you some slack. If I had it my way, AA and every other "how do you feel?" group would be eliminated and the money given to the victims of these people. Put their kids in school and get the children some counseling - screw the addict - it their problem and I believe they CHOSE it.
As far as your boyfriend and the "look in his eyes" That look is called desperation! He will say and do ANYTHING to get out of where he is and will screw, steal from, cheat and lie to anyone he can to do it. **Hint hint - his mom probably already knows this and that is the reason for her behavior.** I'm sorry to come down so hard on you, but I lived the life you are headed for firsthand and it TOTALLY SUCKS.
I am what Bri would call a savior - I tried to do everything and anything to help her out of her troubles and realized way too late that it was not only her life she was ruining, but also mine and her kids. I came riding in on my white horse trying to save the "poor damsel in distress" What a joke she just wanted someone to clean up every mess she created and support her habit. I have heard this story a hundred times and didn't realize I was living it til I got out and over my own addiction which I finally realized was. . .HER. My unsolicited advice - run, Bbro run like the freakin wind and never look back!

yesman, I think that you're the exception rather than the rule. I agree, there's too much "feeling" going on instead of action. But whatever chemical your brain produces that lets you put down a physically addictive substance without even looking back....damn. You need to bottle that stuff, you'd make a fortune.

My mom is the same as you. She can't even fathom why anyone would want to put anything in their body that makes them that sick. There would be no way to explain the need to her, because her brain doesn't work that way. You two are lucky.

For people on the other end of the spectrum, they can no more stop using than they can hold their breath for 30 minutes. If they try, the pressure just builds and builds until they can't take it anymore. I think there's evidence that it's physiological as much as psychological, but I don't have any idea where to get proof of it.

Knowing I have "done it all" and still was able to walk away when I chose to so do, makes me the rare exception to the rule. Of that, I am painfully aware - my issue is with those who believe they can and try to save, help or whatever those who are "the rule." I feel badly for these people and want to help them before they lose or waste years of their lives and endure unnecessary pain and damage. Here I go again - tryin to be the savior - see Bri - I can't help it.

You know what is really weird...as addicted I am to everything else (name something: I'm addicted to it) I am not addicted to cigarettes. I can smoke one and then never have another one again. I've been a 'social' smoker and now I don't even do that. WHY would I NOT become addicted to smokes? So. Weird.

Druggies can be fun in their own way too you know. I've never seen anything funnier than a guy on both shrooms and speed at the same time. He was running around our quad for at least 45 min before campus security finally caught him. He thought he was being attacked by ninja gnomes or something and kept screaming at them while pretending to be the Master Sergent. He even went so far as to throw a grenade (I can't imagine what he was seeing right then) and then jumped off a height divider into a pile of snow about 25 feet below him, rumor has it he broke 2 ribs. Absolutly hilarious. :lol2: