That's why you shouldn't read!

"one true book" is worth dying to protect. But not to protect the book. God will have his word out there whether you like it or not. If you die because of your faith in God, you are truly a believer. No more doubts about hypocrisy or anything else. What if, in the "possibly nearer than you could imagine" future, it becomes a crime to own a Bible (for bonus points, name one of the 3 places wehre this has occurred in the last 40 years), you are essentially asked to revoke your faith or die. What if those who publicly revoke get a mark of somekind to render them "acceptable" to the government. Now they can go back to work, watch TV, travel around and do the World Beer Tour at Old Chicago. We will finally make ourselves the true secular humanists we were always meant to be.

But there's a vague rumble on the horizon. A sense of impending doom. Finally, after all teh locos on the street corners (funny, haven't seen them lately) have been bugging us about this, you'd think they'd want to come out and prophecy about it.

Rumblerumblerumble.

I would like to say that I truly believe that a similar scenario is set to occur. I don't buy any dates put out by nutbag TV preachers. I don't buy the numerology nor the crystal bullshit. It. Is. Coming. That's the only reason these fucktarded Xtians want anything to do with you -- they're genuinely trying (in ever more annoying ways) to make it so that you will miss the reign of the Antichrist.

Because he (whether he is USA, Israel, Syria, whatever..it doesn't matter. He might be Ronald Reagan popped out of his pez dispenser to battle the mighty zorg. But when God himself comes to smite the ever living SMITATIONS of smite out of him, that's it. End game. If you have the mark, you're gone. And I'm sure there will be many many heartbreaking stories of people who go, "But I never had proof of your existence until now!"

We had proof in many many ways. They were ways only discernable to the heart, so those who discounted such weak emotions missed out. But it was written in the bible for those who read. If the critics of God's word spend a friggin weekend on the Chicago Tribune, The building would be razed within a month. No scrutiny more laserlike has ever been focused on a single document, and had the life sucked out of the text by people seeking to destroy God one snide comment at a time.

Anyway, this doesn't really affect my life. My life is to be good to others in all the little ways that you can. You be her shoulder to cry on , you help move the furniture after his divorce. You write a check that seems unaffordable adn give it to them for their kids' college fund. God blesses that.

You see a man or woman on the street, give em a coat and money for some decent drugs or booze. If you don't want em high, put them in your car and drive to Perkins. They're used to seeing em there anyway, and they know my card is good. Got leftovers? Hand em to the bag lady. What. You're going to eat 3 bites of the sweet and sour pork for lunch and go "meh". That lady is going to eat like a Queen. I'm running out of handme down coats btw. If it's a cold winter, time to go pick some up that are good enough to resist -0 winds.

Do other people who don't believe in God do the same thing? Presumably so. But the selfish satisfaction of "I'm a good person, I did this" and the slightly more palatable buzz of seeing a kid smile at Christmas have one extra benefit for a Christian: I might screw up later tonight, or I might not make it to the car. But I feel the presence of the Lord in my life right now, and it feels GOOD to be doing exactly what he told his disciples to do 1000 years ago. You can see a glimpse of heaven through that stuff.

That's why drugs are bad for me. I tend to see hell. Not "see" as in shrooms-style, but see as in understand. And when that happens, it is a long, long, long time before any but the mildest ganja will give me the slight, comfortable buzz that kills my heart racing at what I feel might be true.

It really is an important issue to me. Personally. You can take your debates about abortion and rights and gays and all that stuff and throw it off a cliff. I don't listen to em except for when I need enough anger to make it up a bad hill when bike riding. I Want to Know the Heart of the Living God, and I Want to Serve Him. I am not after your children or your government.

I'm still bogged down in sin, but God keeps coming back with jjjjjjjjjust onnnnnne more chance. I joke about religion because I want to "be one of the guys". I throw the metal horns at shows and paint a cross on my forehead to look metal, even though doing those things feels like it hurts the spirit living inside of me. Lessens it, perhaps.

So before you come at me for my judgementalist, legalistic, archaic notions about the supreme being, understand that I wage a daily battle with my old nature (which is very, VERY good at things that are not of God), and I fail. Twice before breakfast, some days. I call someone an asshole. I sluff off at work. I keep smoking cigarettes even thuogh it would make my mama happy to know that I quit and will add that many more years to my life. I look at porn on the computer, and it shoots down any and all defenses I have, sexually. I get horny, I have to make out. jSuddenly I'm not keeping my eye on what I feel is good and right. I'm trying to get my horn scratched.

Afterwards, I feel the lapse in judgement I allowed, and am utterly tired. So tired of not being able to say no to (drugs, video games, food, sex, whatever your addiction is). Please help me find a way, God.

Suddenly, the way becomes clear. Oh my God. But it requires sacrifice. You have to put aside your desires and lusts and become a new creature. You don't get to ease in over the course of months or years. Here is your decision time. What do you pick? I pick God, of course, but fail miserably at making the necessary changes in my life. I just can't let go of that control. God, everyone I talk to says you don't exist, and that life is about biting off as much as you can chew in the short time available, and the devil take the hindmost. Wouldn't I like to fuck that guy's wife? He'll never know, and it's just for fun. She even gave you her number. You said something really shitty to your mom again this morning, and you knew she was having a hard time with her best friend's death. You should apologize. But you don't. Hey, weed! I really need a bowl right now, I'm stressing at work.

Rinse, repeat.

If you think actively being a Christian means standing in judgement over OTHER people, you're looking at the wrong people. It's not about guilt, it's about striving for excellence and failing, then letting the grace of God pull you back up. He "saves" you, yeah. But he strenghtens you, comforts you, and teaches you. You can have your Buddhas sitting in temples, your priests in their little...priest box things...and your coldly comforting atheist bible. I am seeking (and, rarely, do find) an actual relationship with the creator of everything in the universe.

That is more hardcore than anything you can think of, and I can think of soem hardcore shit.

That's my personal story as it stands right now. Flamers get a laminated symbol of my utter dismissal of their jibes. I jsut have to eat a can of chili and make some. :)

0. These are not flames.

1. Determining ethical behavior without a God involved is a similar struggle. Perhaps exactly the same struggle. One may have a religious moral center, or one may have a philosophical moral center.

2. Anthropology shows that humankind has a true fascination with apocalypse scenarios. Almost everyone agrees with one or another, at some time in their life. Luckily none of these believed-in scenarios has come true and humankind continues to exist.

3. When atheists talk to you about there not being a God, in increasingly annoying ways, they love you and are merely trying to get you not to waste your time here on Earth. Since they don't believe in an afterlife, this is a mortal struggle.

Oh I'm with you on the second point. I don't pretend to know when it's happening. But because I know the word of God to be true, and I see where prophecies have been fulfilled left and right, it's clear to me that strange things are afoot at the Circle K. It might be tomorrow, it might be in 1000 more years; there's no way for us to know when it's going to happen. But to believe in Christ means believing everything he said, not just some of it.

Determining ethical behavior is only a small part of my struggle, and that of other Christians. Once you have experienced a relationship with God, losing it becomes a terrible thing. When you fight with your wife (all jokes aside here), you feel a gap in your heart until you've made things right with her. She's not "there" until you come back together. Likewise, until you reach a good relationship with your creator, there is an emptiness and a searching that is never fulfilled (hence the constant philosophical meanderings that never reach a destination). Once you've experienced that relationship, it is a horrible thing to lose. That's why struggling with sin is so important to Christians. It's not just some legalistic moral requirement, it's the way to reestablish a connection.

That is why Christians need to worry about that relationship and leave everyone else alone.

That's a popular viewpoint. But it's based on the misconception that this is an atheist country that is somehow being taken over by Christians. Actually, the opposite is more true. The US is founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy, plain and simple. No amount of whining can change that. However, we all live together and must get along as best as we know how. That doesn't mean that only the Christians have to keep their opinions private and remove them from the arena of ideas. It doesn't mean that anyone of faith must act as atheistic as possible if they are in public office. Separation of church and state is not a requirement for the eradication of religion in the public square, although that's the atheist wet dream.

You are 100% correct, though. If Christians would worry as much about their own lives as they do the lives of others, it would be a far different world. But not in the way you think. If there were more Christians who actually lived like Christ, the message of hope would spread even further, not be choked off.

I don't see how anyone can look at the state of the country today, with popular music soaked in imagery of ho's, killing, drugs, and decay, with people committing mass murder in schools and businesses, with everything that is evil being propped up and everything that is pure being mocked and derided, and decide that things are better when God is out of the picture. We are so frantic that the government might be listening to our conversations and use them against us, but we're completely ambivalent about saying the most hurtful things we can come up with to damage others. We are so bloody concerned that someone somewhere is cutting down a tree, but we ignore the human being right next to us that is dying inside. We want to steal from the rich to give to the poor, but the poor never get anything, and the Robin Hoods have homes on Martha's Vineyard.

Everything is backwards and wrong on a large scale, and it's not because people are acting too Christian, count on that.

Everything good does not come from Christianity.
Everything bad does not come from a lack of Christianity.
Questioning Christianity does not make you an athiest.

Questioning Christianity isn't bad. You're not supposed to just drink the kool-aid and act like a good boy.

I'm still working on the first 2.

I think it's more that "nothing bad can come from emulating Christ" and "if it's bad, it's not of Christ"

Is there or isn't there an athiest conspiracy to attack God?I have no problem with the message of Jesus. I've commented on the observable institution of Christianity.

Nood you describe an odd picture of what the culture is; I think it's by your need to paint a picture that redeems your beliefs, instead of the other way around. You're seeing what you want to see.

Either that, or Colorado is totally insane. I'm not ruling that out.

with people committing mass murder in schools and businesses

I attended schools for 18 years and not once did anyone commit a murder at any of them, much less a mass one. I have worked at and consulted for (...counts... aw fuggit) about 30 different companies and not once did anyone commit a murder at any of them. There was a guy who lost it, but he only became convinced that he was working on a super-secret AT&T project, and had to be escorted out.

Don't watch the news and listen to the sermon and take that as your reality. Look around and see the reality for yourself. In the reality I notice, people go to their schools and learn, spend most of ther time working at their jobs, and try in vain to get a little bit of entertainment at the end of the day.

everything that is evil being propped up and everything that is pure being mocked and derided

Everything...! Mocked and derided! Please. I mock and deride this statement as obviously false.

and decide that things are better when God is out of the picture.

What you really want is for people to have a stronger moral basis in general, not specfically your moral basis, right?

It's not an atheist conspiracy. It's the culmination of many years of rejecting God on a nationwide scale combined with the hypocrisy of Christians themselves. I switched to the words "emulating Christ" because the word "Christianity" has acquired so much baggage through the years that has nothing to do with its real definition.

Mmmaybe. I don't think so, though. There has always been good and bad in the world, so it's not as if we are more wicked now than ever before. In that respect, it's true that it's business as usual. However, in this country, we are culturally becoming morally bankrupt. For example, we have eliminated slavery, but what have we replaced it with? Glocks, pimps, and "baby daddies". By "we" I don't mean "whites", I mean the culture as a whole. Freedom of speech is no longer about the right to speak out against government. It's about how offensive you can be without anyone taking you to task on it.

I can't argue with this.

Although most kids will never see a murder happen, there is a 100% increase in school shootings nationwide. It was inconceivable at one time that anything like that could possibly occur. Now, you can't go a month without an incident cropping up. What changed between then and now? Guns are harder to get, security is tighter, laws are more strictly enforced. Something has fundamentally changed in the minds of these kids and in the adults that care for them -- what is it?

If something occurs and you hear about it on the news, it's reality. It doesn't immediately affect my small bubble of existence necessarily, but it's real. And the problems are growing, not receding. It's nice that most of us are still able to function in our lives without being touched by the worst of these crimes. So were the victims, until it happened to them.

It's considered ridiculous for someone to remain a virgin until marriage. Nothing is funnier than mocking someone's religious beliefs -- those sheep. MTV2's icon is Cerberus, the 3-headed guardian of the gates of hades. Truth in advertising, that -- the music that's popular glorifies death, both physical and spiritual. There are still songs about normal things, but they're sharing more and more airtime with odes to suicide, hopelessness, loveless sex, getting and staying high, and telling everyone else to fuck off. I'm in a metal band, I should know. The anger and fear that used to fuel aggression and rebellion in the fringe of the music scene is mainstream now. No one knows what they're rebelling against, they just want to feel the power that comes from anger. Kids cut themselves for no reason. Nothing is shocking -- you can find beheading videos, images of massacre and rape (the real thing), and pedophilia with 5 minutes and an internet connection. I laugh at ytmnd.com, but check out the nsfw version of their forums. These are kids. They haven't even started shaving yet, but they've learned to ridicule the mentally and physically handicapped, where to find the best fisting footage, and what a head looks like after being hit with buckshot. Seriously, go check it out. These are normal kids, just trying to outshock each other, but what are the long term effects of constantly soaking in this imagery and hatred?

I guess not. I think that real morality comes from God. You can approximate it without God in the mix, but at some point it fails to deliver. Like I said, the people who are so concerned that someone is going to "force" God on them might be better served worrying about what is being injected gradually. It's a lot more damaging. There have been superpowers before the USA, and they were just as -- if not more -- powerful, in the context of their time. Eventually they all collapsed under their excesses. We've only been around 200-odd years, and we're already feeling the strain. That's not a good sign.

I've said this before, ad nauseum, but I'm not imposing a definition upon Christianity. I'm using the most obvious definition possible. If an institution calls itself Christianity, I take that self-definition at face value. I don't need to do any semantic trickery. There should be no confusion about whether I am discussing theoretical Christianity or actual Christianity. When I say Christianity, I mean simply that. Nothing more, nothing less. Christianity: the actual thing that actually exists.

Accordingly: I'm asuming that any persons who choose to define themselves as Christian will understand that this logically implies membership in the observable institution of Christianity. The actual Christianity, not the theoretical one.

What's "Judeo-Christian philosophy"? If it's the Old Testament, then it is just Jewish. If it is Old and New Testament, then it's just Christian. Is it bits and pieces taken from philosophers of each persuasion?

As there were more Deists among the Founding Fathers than Jews, I suspect that the "Judeo-Christian philosophy" line is Bill O'Reilly's code word for "the US was founded as a Christian nation".

I'm not accusing you of playing semantics. "Christian" means "Christ-like". No matter how impressive the buildings, the choir robes, the Popemobile, or the rituals, Christianity is the condition of following Christ, not the religious, legalistic accoutrements. I was just clarifying that.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

They're not talking about Vishnu.

Christianity does not have a patent on God.

So, what should I call people who call themselves Christians?
The most respectful thing for me to do is honor their own wishes to be called Christians.

You tell us; you're soaking in it.

You're so fixated on it, you think it's the predominant culture.

Glocks, pimps, and baby daddy. Where do they appear on Wikipedia's list of the 50 top grossing films in the US and Canada?

In which of those films would you find any one of the three cultural notes you find so significant?

None. Not one. In fact, out of the fifty films, there's really only one that's a big long soak in hatred and violence and ugly subculture.

It's currently #11, "Passion of the Christ".

One more for fun. Is the culture going morally astray?
Anyone can define the culture as "evil" by their definition of evil. In this case, your source is either Greek mythology or Harry Potter. But hey, whatever you hit, call it the target: yeah, yeah, I'm with you man, MTV2's icon is evil and a sure sign of the coming culture wars! That's where they strike first, you know, MTV2. They don't do it on cable channels with a viewership of over 25,000 because that would be too obvious.

Feeling mocked and ridiculed? But it isn't, it's just honest conversation.

Maybe the athiest conspiracy erases all evidence of their presence, like ninjas.

Three headed guardian mutt of the gates to Hades?
http://www.feeder.ro/mtv2_987557.gif
one... two..

Wrong.

Amendment 1 (1st for a reason)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

In Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, an agreement signed between the United States and the Muslim region of North Africa in 1797 after negotiations concluded by George Washington (the document, which was approved by the Senate in accordance with Constitutional law, and then signed by John Adams), it states flatly, "The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." signed by John Adams
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" John Adams

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; -Benjamin Franklin

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law" -Thomas Jefferson

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
From: Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"
John Adams April 27,1797

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries"
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -James Madison fourth president and father of the Constitution

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." -James Madison

The words "one nation under God" were not added to the Pledge of allegiance until 1953

None of the 85 Federalist Papers written in support of the Constitution reference God, the Bible, religion or Christianity.

The words "in God we trust were not consistently added to all money until the 1950s after the McCarthy Era

James Madison, Jefferson's close friend and political ally, was just as vigorously opposed to religious intrusions into civil affairs as Jefferson was. In 1785, when the Commonwealth of Virginia was considering passage of a bill "establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," Madison wrote his famous "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments" in which he presented fifteen reasons why government should not be come involved in the support of any religion.
The views of Madison and Jefferson prevailed in the Virginia Assembly

Jesus even said it:
Mark 12:17
And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

Matthew 22:21
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Luke 20:25
And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion." -Thomas Paine

They're not talking about the Christian god, either. Or they're talking about both. They leave it up to the reader to fill in the blank. This makes sense, as they certainly were not all Christians themselves.

I am not a source for research. I'm just a guy. It's easy to play "battling factoids" and have either side declare themselves the winner. Whoever has the catchiest comeback wins. whatever.

All I'm saying is that there's something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture, and the evidence of it is growing constantly. It wasn't there 50 years ago. You tell me what it is, since I'm so obviously out of touch.

This thread illustrates what I'm talking about in many ways. I'm saying we're losing a connection to something good and necessary, and the responses vary from wise-ass remarks to deliberate misconstruing of what I'm saying. Flint, this means you. I said there's no atheist conspiracy, let it go. I also said that I was not accusing you of semantic games, so don't prove me wrong.


edit: more posts came in while i was typing. The model for the MTV dog is, in fact, cerberus, and it's meant to be "dark", just like the little heavy metal skulls and stuff. Yes, it has 2 heads, hence MTV2.

The majority of the founding fathers identified with the God of Christianity and the moral precepts from the Judeo-Christian ethic. Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism, and they worship the same God. Deism rejected Christianity, but the Providence they believed in was a version of the western God.

By the way, Thomas Jefferson also wrote:

We can all pull quotes from the bible, from the founding fathers, and from any other text to bolster our own claims and argue against others. But taken as a whole, there is no doubt that the US was a nation of faith at its inception.

That's not fair... Why does Undertoad get to mock and ridicule you, but I get called out for it?
Am I a "wise-ass" for reading "something that's gradually insinuating itself into our culture" as "conspiracy" ???

Edit moved to new post...

I absolutely doubt that. The treaty and first amendment are both very clear.
"The Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

It's been there for more than 50 years, and it's called progress. Occasionally there are generations where there's virtually no progress, and one's life is fundamentally the same as one's grandparents', but a period of progress always comes along to make people say "kids these days" or "back in my day".

Here's my take.

Gods were created to explain what we don't understand. Thousands of years ago, we didn't understand thunder, so Thor was the explanation. As we understand more, there is less of a need to rely on a "god". Scientists can explain pretty much everything from nanoseconds after the big bang to the present. Sure there are gaps and sure there are alternative explanations, like religion. But "god" comes down to being that which created matter/energy and caused the big bang. If you want to say that's "god", be my guest. If he designed our unniverse intelligently from the other side of the big bang, go right ahead.

The only real mysteries left are "why are we here?" and "what happens to us after we die". People who are uncomfortable with death want reassurance that we don't just become worm food, so they take solice in religion. I sometimes wish I could do that. I attend church, and feel all warm and fuzzy, and walk out thinking things like "people do not rise from the dead. The story of Saul on the road to Damascus sounds more like a UFO encounter than anything else".

And "God" has printed a manual on how to get to Heaven. It happens to be a self-conflicting book, written by men, but is claimed to be written by/ inspired by God. Some of it is actually a great guide for the survival of a young species, especially Leviticus and the ten commandments. Is it literal, or allegory - life lessons in story form? It can't be both. Until that's decided and the internal conflicts resolved - it's just a book. Fiction, IMHO.

Now-a-days, God becomes this omnipotent being that controls the unniverse. "God willing", God forbid", cause abdication of responsibility. A religious person is not responsible for his circumstances, something happened to them because they didn't go to church, didn't pray, talk to snakes, do the jig, whatever. And if you get on God's bad side, there'll be hell to pay - literally.

What's happened in the last 50 years is that knowledge has increased dramatically. People have more free time. They realize that they don't *want* to follow dogma. And the other side has fought back, trying to force these "non-beleivers" to behave as "good Christians", using legislation. Information spreads quickly, so when Jim Bakker, Pat Robinson, Jimmy Swaggart, or a self-proclaimed "Christian" behaves in a non-Christian way, *all* Christians and Christianity loses creditbility, and more people leave the faith. We also see how world wide, religion has caused conflict, death, destruction, and suffering, and don't want parts of that.

Are we losing a connection with something good and necessary? I don't feel like I am, but I'm not connected with religion, and have'nt been for 35 years.

Sorry for the tw-ish post

UT had a disclaimer. Plus, a conspiracy requires organization, and I don't think what I'm talking about is a deliberately planned thing, just a decay of some kind.

Progress? -- [ IMG=goatse ]

I swear: things are bad because you perceive them as bad. Let me give you a fresh spin on -- uh, stuff I think you're trying to worry about --

The culture seems to be becoming more openly sexual. Dwellars are openly posting nipple shots on the forums! Even as the FCC cracks down, wild west broadcasters on satellite and internet find new ways to go past what seems to be any level of decorum!

The teenage pregnancy rate in this country is at its lowest level in 30 years, down 36% since its peak in 1990. A growing body of research suggests that both increased abstinence and changes in contraceptive practice are responsible for recent declines in teenage pregnancy.

Source (warning: PDF)

Can you explain that? The youth culture is foul beyond belief; they're "soaking" in it. And at the end of the day, their behavior is largely close to, or better than, what it was twenty years ago.

It may be that they already have a different take on the art of their culture than you do: their take is more ironic.

Edit: I really would prefer to discuss this on a rational level, with a minimum of embellishment via impossible-to-verify anecdotal/emotional conjecture, but when a subject drifts into a realm that isn't intelligently debatable, I tend to inject a little humor. It isn't mean-spirited.

I see it too, noodle. Mostly I think it's because news travels faster now than it did 50 years ago. Hell, it's even faster than it was when I was a pup. Speaking of when I was a kid, there was a nutjob across the river from us that baked his baby in an oven. That made the local newspaper, but it didn't get on statewide TV, and it didn't get on national television. Today, it would be part of the national news cycle for at least a week. The good old days weren't. We were just ignorant of the evil that was out there.

I don't like having to explain everything. I'm too verbose as it is.

Yes. Stretching out your ass isn't something invented in the past 50 years; in fact it has been official government policy on occasion. At least this guy was probably willing.

I get your point, UT. But we still have the highest teenage pregnancy rate of any industrialized nation. Suicide is the third-leading cause of death for people between the ages of 15-24, despite a slight recent decline and a massive anti-suicide campaign.

Sexual openness isn't necessarily the great progressive windfall you might think, according to the National Longitudinal Survey of Adoles*cent Health, Wave II, 1996., which shows a link between teenage sexual activity and depression:

And anyway, it's more than just who's having sex or not. It's an attitude. Like glatt said, it may just be that because of improved communication, we can see the bad stuff that's out there more easily. It doesn't mean EVERYone is participating in it. But it's becoming more acceptable, maybe because we're tired of fighting it.

By the way, remember the big stink over abstinence being taught in schools? I'll give birth control its due, but abstinence is a huge factor in the decline in teen pregnancy. That works against my "kids these days are going to hell in a handbasket" theory. But the reaction of the left-wingers who were afraid that teaching abstinence was going to turn us into a theocracy is the attitude I was originally speaking to.



Oh, I forgot to make another point earlier. MY NIPPLE WAS THE FIRST ONE ON THE CELLAR. And it had a porn border. Don't accuse me of being stodgy. I'm just observing.

No. I remember a lot of talk about abstinence-only education, though.Then you're a step beyond the people who were pushing abstinence-only education, against whom the big stink was raised.Again, it was abstinence-only education that raised the objections.

Dig if you will: it's not a push to eliminate God you observe, it's a push to eliminate God-only (if I may borrow, and extend upon, a device...)

A cultural monopoly cannot claim persecution simply because they are being asked to play by the same rules as everyone else. >>>>>>> :2cents:

Wait.

There's a push to eliminate God-only? I thought there was no conspiracy. I'm taking notes as fast as I can, stop switching up on me.

And what cultural monopoly are you referring to? I thought we were a secular nation. And don't push your rules on me. I'm not a numbah! I am a FREE MAN! :lol:

Thread is dead. It'll come up again in a week or two, let's take a break. Prediction: another school shooting before Christmas. xmas. whatever.

You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to.

You say "only the Christians have to keep their opinions private" I say... blah blah blah . . . dinner is ready.

So entertaining...

Teen suicide could be high for a couple of reasons

Kids feel like a failure because they don't meet their parents' religious/moral standard.

Pressure to excel, no chance to be a kid.

Over-supervision due to parents fear of abduction.

The disparity between rich and poor. On TV, kids see lifestyles that are way above average, and despair.

Don't feel too bad. In Australia, suicide is the leading cause of death for males in that age group.

If you are Christian you follow the teachings of Christ.

That seems to be the standard definition. But...

#1: Not everyone who follows the teachings of Christ is a Christian.
#2: Not everyone who is a Christian follows the teachings of Christ.

In both cases, I respect the wishes of the individual, regarding what they define themselves as.

Then a whole lot of people who call themselves Christian should stop. 'Cause they aren't. And they don't.

one more thing:
 

#3: Not everyone agrees what the teachings of Christ are, exactly.

Everyone fails to follow the teachings of Christ. Some do better than others, but even the most devoted follower of Christ screws up. Mother Theresa had her own private sins. The idea of being a Christian is to turn from sin and walk the other way instead of continuing in it. But you're right, there are a lot of hypocrites who claim to be Christians but aren't. Or they are, but have fallen so far back into their old nature that they are useless as Christians.

I fear the results of my own hypocrisy every day. I try, but the day never goes by that I don't at least think something wrong about another person, cheat my employer by....oh, say, spending too much time on the web, or do something that leaves a bad example to others. Those are *good* days. But knowing Christ has your back is a good, peaceful feeling. It helps when you're feeling physically sick, when you're watching your dad battle cancer, when the money disappears, when someone cheats or otherwise hurts you, etc. etc., that no matter what happens, you are under the eye and protection of the almighty, and you will get strength to get through it. If I had to gain that kind of strength via "acting moral", I'd be up a creek.

I'm glad you've found something that works for you, mrnoodle.

It's just my opinion, but striving to act moral actually serves humanity, and myself, alot better than simply having a get-out-of-jail free card.

Regarding the original thread subject, the word Christian seems to have a pretty amorphous meaning, to me.

There's a get out of jail card, but it's not free, believe me. Not only did someone die acquiring it, it wasn't even the person who was supposed to die. Beyond that, it was someone who was entirely blameless, even according to the man who gave the execution order. Even according to the murderer being executed alongside him. I did that. I put him there. And he forgave me. And I still do the things that put him there in the first place. And he still forgives.

I dunno, I find that to be a decent reason to strive to be moral.


The meaning of this isn't amorphous, man. Those who don't understand assign their own meanings to the word, but that doesn't define it. The original definition stands, no matter who tries to change it -- neither self-proclaimed Christians or otherwise.

I thought you said it was a replacement for acting moral... (Otherwise you'd be "be up a creek" remember?) If I misunderstood that, I'm sorry.So, and I've asked this before, what do we call the MILLLIONS of people who aren't real Christians? And, how do we determine the real Christians? What if somebody thinks you aren't a real Christian, and you think the same of them? Who is right? In the real world, it isn't cut and dried. At all.

Striving to be like Jesus is a good thing, even when you fail. It's those so-called Christians who criticise others for acting un-Christian that anger me, especially since they fail, too. And those who try to legislate me into Christianity need to stop.

As for Christ having your back? Sounds like a crutch, to me. He didn't cause those things, and he can't fix them, either, IMHO. I'm glad you get a good, peaceful feeling. Who gives you "the strength to get through it"? You do; it's all you.

Only God knows someone's heart, but by someone's actions you know what they believe. Someone can be a Christian and fail to convince me of the fact by their actions. That doesn't change the whether they are a Christian or not, but it does affect their credibility. At the same time, someone can follow every law in the bible to a T, but not have the love of Christ in their heart. So people's actions in the real world are not cut and dried. But who Christ is doesn't change. To mangle a certain wellknown verse, you can tell what kind of tree it is by the fruit that falls from its branches. That doesn't mean every single piece of fruit is good, unfortunately.

To continue mangling the metaphor, it seems like what you're asking is, "If someone claims to be an apple tree, how do I know if they're telling the truth?" Well, see if there are apples on the ground.

Christians are actually called to hold each other accountable for their actions. To people who aren't Christians, they're supposed to share the gospel. In love, not acting as judges. You're right, Christianity isn't about forcing false morality on people who don't believe it. But, from a human point of view -- this isn't from God, it's just my opinion, which is often wrong -- what is the difference between pushing legislation that infringes on your personal set of values and that which infringes on mine? Are your values more important than mine, simply by virtue of the fact that you don't believe in God? We can be pissed at each other and disagree vehemently with the other's point of view, but I don't want your values pushed on me any more than you want mine pushed on you.

In the system of government we've set up, the vote will decide. If not directly, than representationally through the votes of congress. We'll just have to duke it out. This is an entirely secular process, where majority rules. It certainly doesn't favor God in any way.

Nope, I tried doing things with my own strength and found out it didn't work. I still do try it from time to time, but now that I've thrown in with Christ, the consequences are always the same. It just doesn't work. If that means I use a crutch, then a crutch is what I'll use.

There was a time when I didn't believe. I'm not totally blind to the other point of view. I still doubt. But when God speaks, you know it. It's idiocy to anyone else, but it's life itself to those who believe. It's like trying to explain snow to someone who lives in the Sahara. You can imagine aspects of it, conjure up reasonable fascimiles, and utterly convince yourself that you know all about where the other person is coming from (and be 100% sure that they're full of crap), but until the flakes fall on your face, you don't "get" it. It can't be explained into existence or out of existence, you have to be under it when it falls to know for sure. And you can go for years without ever seeing it again, and begin to doubt that you ever felt it in the first place. The metaphor can go on forever, but I've already taken it too far.

@ mr noodle.

from your photograph I can see you are a sensible and down to earth person who knows what the essense of christianity should be. I am glad you feel christ has your back and can rest in that.:)


As for myself ? To answer the question what is it to be a christian is simply following the golden rule. I try ,,try,,try not to be intolerant of those who are woefully unaware. I try to act in a way I want fellow humans to act toward me. I do fail alot being human.

I only know what being a christian is'nt...... so seven years ago I left organized religion. If I have any religion at all it is kept in my heart. I keep it between me and my conscience since in the end the only thing that will condem me is my own mind.

Just my opinion.

The Golden Rule in all religions
@http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html


Ethic of reciprocity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity


Tolerance

Ethical teaching interprets the Golden Rule as mutual respect for one's neighbour (rather than as a deontological or consequentialist rule.) Most of us know that different people have different faith or ideological beliefs, different preferences concerning sex or other matters, and may belong to a different cultural heritage. From a "tolerance" perspective, the golden rule depends on everyone's ability to understand and give respect to such difference. George Bernard Shaw once said that "The golden rule is that there are no golden rules".

Some hold that the Golden Rule itself gives moral guidance on right and wrong. Others say this guiding rule may or may not explicitly tell one which actions or treatments are right or wrong. e.g., under the ethic of reciprocity, a person of atheist persuasion may have a (legal) right to insult religion under the right of freedom of expression but, as a personal choice, may refrain from doing so in public out of respect to the sensitivity of the other. Conversely, a person of religious persuasion may refrain from taking action against such public display out of respect to the sensitivity of other about the right of freedom of speech. Conversely, the lack of mutual respect might mean that each side might deliberately violate the golden rule as a provocation (to assert one's right) or as an intimidation (to prevent other from making offence).

I'm not really asking that. I can see if there are, in my opinion, "apples on the ground" or not, irrespective of how the person defines themself - as a Christian, or not. And those "apples" are only from my perspective, anyway.

I guess it just seems like to me the word Christian has a personal meaning to each person, based on their interpretation of the message of Jesus. So, that's as many different definitions as there are people in the world. That's not a very useful meaning for the word.

The meaning I use is: people who go to Christian churches, and/or define themselves as Christian, are Christians. Since I can't see into the heart of each and every one of them, I just respect their personal wishes to be defined however they see fit. That seems like the most fair, and most clear, way to define the word, to me. That's because I am intending this to be a real world definition for an actual, tangible human institution.

exactly.

But, if we use the word to describe the reality we actually see, it also means those people (which is a group that can't even be specified...)

hey you cheater. I posted that first!


see 'golden rule' of all religions ...posted BEFORE yours. :meanface:




heh heh heh

Some legislation is permissive, and some restrictive, for want of a better decription. When legislation allows same-gender marriage for example, it doesn't mean that everyone, or for that matter anyone, must marry someone of the same gender. It permits behavior. On the other hand, legislation can restrict behavior. Mississippi has banned marital aids. This is very restrictive. Christians, conservatives, repubicans - however you want to label them - want to make everyone have the same values that they do. They rail against sex on TV, in movies and magazines, bad words in songs, calling Christmas anything other than Christmas, and they would be very happy to legislate enforcement of those things. I'm a live-and-let-live kind of guy, too. I'll never force you to have an abortion, ok?

Sometimes the choice isn't over which set of values is infringed, but whether either of them are. If gay marriage is allowed, then neither set of values is infringed, any more than allowing televisions infringes on the values of the Amish. But if gay marriage is not allowed, than one set of values is being infringed. If a school organizes prayer, it is pushing that set of values, but they can't (and shouldn't try to) stop students from praying on their own time. If any administrator ever gets overzealous and starts confiscating Bibles, crucifixes, stars of David, pentagrams, etc because "you can't have religion in school", then they should be corrected firmly, but nobody's religion is being pushed either way by a principal failing to read the Lord's Prayer over the PA system.

I think you'll find that with few exceptions (abortion = murder being the big one), the issues that are considered "attacks" on Christianity don't actually affect Christians who weren't relying on the government to prop them up.

kinda random thought, here, but:
 

Everyone always says this, but, isn't there only a certain amount of questioning that is logistically possible? I mean, at a certain point, your questioning either leads you "back in the fold" or you "jump ship" ...right? If you "jump ship" as a result of your questioning, then that questioning, while it wasn't dis-allowed, simply wasn't possible to carry to fruition, as a Christian. If the conclsuions found you "back in the fold" then it was.