What are you talking about?

Not like I had much choice since I was born here but I gave up my right to drink under the age of 21, use marijuana, have grenades, have nuclear weapons, kill someone, rape someone, hold whoever I want prisoner, own someone, and millions of other "rights" to live here without getting fined or going to jail.

Do you have a right to own a nuclear weapon? Why can't I own nuclear weapons? Because I decided to live in a society where nuclear weapons are outlawed therefore I gave up my right to own nuclear weapons to live in my society.


I have to agree 100% with Shawnee123 on this one. Rights are just like ethics, something that is made up by society. Also, you can not confuse philosophy (rights, ethics) with science (gravity, evolution) because one will disappear once humans are gone and the other will continue until heat death.

I own a Beretta automatic, but I keep it unloaded, and never shoot it.

Only if I am violating your right to life, liberty, and property. You only have the right to kill in your own defense.

What are YOU talking about? Yes, You do have the right to smoke marijuana. You also have the right to drink alcohol when you've reached the age of majority (18), and you have the right own grenades, and even nukes as long as you don't use them to infringe on the rights of others and you can ensure that your neighbors are not harmed by radiation caused by them.

All laws against any of these things is a violation of our rights and is a violation of the U.S. Constitution and natural law. You haven't given up your right to own nukes. You may choose not to exercise them, and they you may have your rights violated by being prevented from owning them by force, but this does not mean you don't have the right or that you've given up the right.

Your rights can't be bought, sold, taken, given, or voted away. If every person in the world voted for gravity to go away, we'd still have gravity tomorrow, and the same is true of our rights.

You do not have the right to rape, kill, imprison, or own people because this violates their rights. Your rights end where another person's begin. They don't come from government and government has no legitimate authority to limit our rights. This means you couldn't have given up a right or even chosen not to exercise it because you never had such a right.

Property? Own defense? Are you saying that we were born with the right to have "stuff" and kill to keep our "stuff"?

Why not before 18? Who determines the age of majority?

We own ourselves. Our property is an extension of ourselves. It is the fruits of our labor. Our right to defend ourselves extends to our property as well. And yes, if someone tries to take our property by force, we have the right to use any level of force necessary to stop them up to and including deadly force. For instance, if government agents tried to steal my house, I'd be within my rights to kill them if they refused to go away.

Do I have the right to have sex with animals? To commit suicide? Is running a stop sign infringing on others' rights, if no one else is at the intersection?

This is a gray area. In some cultures the age of majority (consent) is recognized as 13, or 16, etc. but in America, and England before that, for hundreds and hundreds of years, it's been generally accepted to be 18.

Children have rights, but their parents are their stewards and get to make all decisions over their life (unless those decisions endanger their children or otherwise violate their rights) until they reach the age of majority in their particular culture. I suppose if you move out when you're 16 and are paying your own bills, you are an adult and can consume what you please.

No person or group of people, regardless of their number, has any legitimate authority to tell another person what they will or won't do with their own body, what they will or won't consume (assuming what they are consuming was obtained honestly), what medical procedures they will have, which consenting adults they will or won't have sex with, etc.

What if they just want to steal your gum? Hubba Bubba?

Yes, you have the right to have sex with animals, assuming you own the animals in question. And yes, since you own yourself and your life, you have every right to end it if you choose. You also have the right to prostitute yourself, to gamble, to marry your cousin (even if they are the same gender), etc.

You have the right to do ANYTHING you want as long as your actions do not infringe on the person, property, or rights of non-consenting others.

You do not have the right to run a stop sign because you could endanger others, even if you don't see them and believe an intersection is empty.

My guess is I could find a level of force less than deadly force that would make them give up the gum, or I could use the force of my servants (government) to handle it for me.

Tom, you're entitled to your own opinion. The guy down the block feels differently, though. I like the "pursuit of happiness" concept - run with that a little.

The basis of all the laws in America is the recognition (not the creation) that we are born with unalienable rights. Our rights don't come from "society" or from "government" and most certainly aren't a concept or an opinion. They are a reality and are tangible.

Just as gravity existed before Newton "discovered" it, so did our rights before men talked about them or recognized them.

"among these are..."

What, specifically, are these rights? If they are tangible, they can be listed, right? Whether you want to say "hold these truths to be self-evident" or "recognition", this is still denotes subjectivity - it is an opinion, since other people do not have the same view.

Except for the ones that I have.

edit: err. Uh ... "No guns here, Mr. Tepper."

You know, we could consider a GTG ...

Anybody belong to an outdoor range with liberal guest privileges?

I have a private family range and we have melons on the ranch.

You're just a touch far from Philadelphia, and the regulations for travelling with firearms by air are complex to the point that folks from the airlines don't typically know or follow them properly, from what I've heard from other's personal experience.

I just tell em', hand it to them packaged properly, pick it up at my location. Never had an issue.

Radar, you are doing a fine job in this thread handling some pretty mystifying questions and addressing some baffling misconceptions.

Seconded.

Thanks. :)

Thirded.

There are too many to list. Among them are chewing bubblegum, riding a pogo stick, and posting ridiculous claims that we aren't born with rights on websites.

The list is much shorter to say what are rights are not than what they are. Our rights aren't to be defined or limited by governments.

In short, we have the right to do ANYTHING we want as long as our actions don't physically harm or endanger the person, property, or rights of non-consenting others. In other words, the only limitations on our rights are the equal rights of others.

I don't know what country you are from, but here in America, the fact that we have human rights is axiomatic. It's a given. It is recognized not only in America, but throughout the vast majority of the world.

All governments violate human rights to some degree including our own on an ever increasing basis, but nearly all of them also recognize the fact that humans are born with rights.

You gave up nothing....they didn't ask you to give up anything. Everything you can't do was a right taken away from you.

Rights are not created by society, they are taken away by society.
Is there a law that say you have the right to go to the Dairy Queen and get brain freeze? No, laws only take rights away, not give them.

When a deer in the woods wakes up in the morning does it contemplate whether it can go here or there. No, it has the right to go where ever it wants until someone takes part of that right away by putting up a fence or something.
It's the same for humans. When you wake up in the morning you can do anything you want unless someone has taken the right to do that away.

Your rights are not like ethics, they are not analyzed and agreed upon. Laws are like ethics. Rights are natural and yours until they are taken away by society with it's laws/ethics.

When was the last time you flew a commercial airline with a firearm?

Fourthed, or so -- I came in late.

Hawkeye's understanding of this is, well, immature. Time'll cure that.

The idea of rights are created by humans. Without humans there would be no idea of rights just like there would be no such thing as freedom. Both are man-made concepts that mean nothing in the bigger picture. Why? Because natural rights and freedom are abstract concepts.

If you take away gravity, the entire universe would fall apart. If take way natural rights, nothing will change except in the human world.

Radar, a lot of things will cross the gray zone because almost everything will affect someone else. Do I have the right to use electricity because it creates pollution that will kill people with respitory problems? Do I have the right to make as much money as possible even though that may keep other people in poverty and they may die because of that? Do animals have natural rights since we are all animals and we are no more evolved then anything else, but just took a different path?

Humans didn't invent natural rights, they only described them. The cave men with no written language and limited ability to convey complex thought, still had rights, even though they couldn't conceptualize them.

Been quite a while.

I agree. While I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said, you've presented rational points of view without any value judgements or UG/merc-type slur...

never mind...
Now why did you have to go there? Like I said, I don't agree with you, but didn't say anything was ridiculous. :mad:

I'm from The USA. Born and bred. Some of us believe in human rights - plenty of Americans don't.

I don't think rights "exist" as though they would be there even if no humans existed - they are not stand-alone. They are societal conventions, agreed upon by civilizations. The deer that wakes up doesn't think about what it is allowed to do any more than the wolf does. But by your definition, the wolf infringes on the rights of the deer when it eats the deer. If these rights were "pre-existing", they would supercede "might makes right" wouldn't they?

Where do laws come into your philosophy? If someone tries to steal your car, you feel entitled to kill the person. What about due process? The legal system? Is each person their own judge, jury, and executioner, interpreting their own set of "unwritten laws"? This would make for an anxiety-filled society, where no one knows exactly how to behave, because one person's interpretation of "unwritten laws" will be different than another person's, and breaking those "unwritten laws" could get you killed.

1. Humans didn't invent rights. They always existed, and humans merely discovered them in much the same way they discovered gravity. Rights are not "abstract concepts" or an idea. They are a tangible reality.

2. The human world is the world we live in. One could easily argue that without humans the universe would cease to exist entirely. It's the old tree falling with nobody around to hear it thing. If nobody existed with the cognitive ability to comprehend the universe, would it even exist? Without any humans alive on earth, there would still be human rights. There just wouldn't be any humans to exercise them.

3. I didn't say we can't do things that "effect" other people, I said we can't do things that violate the person, property, or rights of non-consenting others.

4. Creating electricity does not necessarily create pollution or respiratory problems in others. You don't have the right to pollute because it is a trespass onto the property of others.

5. Your making of wealth does nothing to keep others poor or cause them to die.

6. Humans alone have natural human rights. We are above all other creatures due to our higher level of sentience, and our ability to reason and to think outside of ourselves.

Actually no. There are no people in America that don't believe in rights, and that includes you. If I tried to kill you, you'd say that you have the right to live. Without rights, you would have no right to complain if I did try to kill you anymore than you would complain about another natural occurance like the rain.

You complain about an "anxiety-filled society" without written laws, but the truth is without rights we'd have no laws and I could enslave you, rape you, rob you, and murder you without fear of retaliation because you have no right to your life, your person, or your possessions. Most would have less anxiety if they knew the only law was that no person could violate the person, property, or rights of others than to live in the "society" where rights aren't recognized that you've described.

Society has no rights. Only individuals do, and they got these rights the moment they were born. Rights don't come from societal conventions or agreements. Rights can't be bought, sold, traded, taken, or given away.

Actually, yes. If you tried to kill me, your actions say that you don't believe in those rights. You would be the one who doesn't believe.

I'm not saying there are no rights, I'm saying rights are rules that a society agrees to.

Wait, didn't you say that laws only limit rights? Now you're saying rights are the basis of laws? You're confusing me. Do laws protect my rights, or limit my rights?

Uncertainty causes anxiety. Without precisely understood rules, people will be uncertain, and therefore anxious.

But what do you mean by "violate"? That's where trouble begins. I might feel that my rights are being violated if you yell obscenities at me from your yard - if my "stuff" is an extesion of my "person", then my reputation, self-esteem, and pride are an even closer extension of my person. Can I kill someone for yelling, since my interpretation is that they are "stealing" my pride?

I didn't say rights aren't recognized.

I disagree. What you're describing sounds like Original Sin to me. Some kind of mystical aura that surrounds us. It's not. We're born with a biological imperitive for survival of our species. We would kill, rape, steal, do whatever it takes to ensure the continuation of our species, if left to ourselves. It's only through interaction with other civilized people that we form conventions that serve to improve the chances of species survival better than we could individually. These convention are rights, morals, mores, laws, courtesies, - whatever you want to call them.

I've broken it down to a level even a child can understand, but in your case, I'll break it down further. You own yourself. Because you own your mind, you have the right to think freely. Because you own your voice, you have the right to express yourself freely. Because you own your labor, you also own the fruits of your labor. You own yourself and no other person or group of people calling themselves "government" or "society" has any claim to you or your labor. Nor do they have any legitimate authority to prevent you from doing anything you want as long as your actions do not PHYSICALLY harm, endanger, or violate the person, property, or rights of non-consenting others. A violation of a right would be preventing another person from exercising their rights.

Our rights do not include going through life without being offended or getting your feelings hurt. Nobody can steal your pride. Nobody else controls your pride or self-esteem but yourself.

I haven't described an "aura" or mysticism. I've described the undeniable, factual, and palpable human rights that we are born with and which have nothing to do whatsoever with societal rules or conventions.

You are free to join the ranks of the most heinous sociopaths of history by trying to deny the reality that human rights exist, but these claims merit the same consideration as denying existence of gravity.

We had rights before we had "society".

Nice. If everyone had your negotiation skills, I'd say 'guns for everyone!'


Society in your definition. The first two people who looked at each other had a society of sorts. From that society rose the knowledge "hey if I try to kill and eat him he might kill and eat me. Perhaps we should learn to work together and not go there."

I have been nothing but respectful to you in this thread. I understand what you've said, I just think you're WRONG. I don't think you're stupid, just WRONG. Oh, you're an asshole, too.

You are the one claiming that society makes rules and creates or defines a "concept" of rights. By YOUR definition, society didn't exist until it could make and enforce such rules. This requires some form of government.

If you and I were on an island together, you'd have absolutely no authority to make rules about how I do things, what medicines I take, etc. unless I physically harmed or endangered you. Then you would be justified in using defensive force against me.

Because you don't have any right to tell me whom I may marry, what foods or medicines I may take, etc., neither do 10 of you or 10 million of you or 10 billion of you calling yourself "society" or "government".

Luckily I've got 99.999999999% of the population of the planet earth who agree with me and who know you are WRONG.

As far as your opinion of me goes, I fully support your RIGHT to have that opinion and to express it freely. You're a member of a not so exclusive club of people who share that opinion. It's a good thing my self-respect has nothing to do with your opinion.

Maybe this is why you lost the election.

It was either that or the fact that I had less money and was running in a district that hasn't elected a white person in the last 20+ years and which votes 90% with the Democratic Party against a well-known incumbent.

My guess is the latter. Even with all the odds stacked against me, I got a very respectable 8% of the vote.

How many people have voted for you again?

Don't mind him, radar. Spexxvet was picked last for kickball.

Now why would you have to put in your two cents on his behalf. I was debating respectfully - where were you when he started belittling me? Do you support people just because they think like you, even when they act like assholes? Oh yeah, as a Christian conservative repubican, I guess you do.

Because the M.O around here has become to treat anyone who doesn't agree with you like an uneducated piece of shit. Hey, it's just like a job!

I expected more from Wolf, too.

Disappointing, to say the least.

Radar happens to say a lot of crazy things that I don't come even close to agreeing with, but he's right on with this stuff.

And by the way ... I'm neither Christian nor a Republican.

And that's cause to insult me?

Yep, nice insults from all. Thanks Rkz...though everyone thinks you're an ass I make a concerted effort to listen to you and give a shit.

I'm done with this place. You're not the nice people I once thought. Have a great time. Luckily I have a right to think you suck.

BuBy

Buby cunt-whore-fuck (look I fit in, I fit in!)

I am also neither of those things

NO! a thousand times NO!

So that and taunting him about the election results* was reasoned argument? I must have missed something, somewhere.

* I applaud Radar's courage in running with the deck stacked against him to that extent.

Perhaps not. If you did, you would realize that BuBy is zip-ese for "On your way out, don't let the door hit you where the Good Lord split you."

No one can be right on this argument because it is opinion. I can say we don't have free will and bring a damn good argument supporting my position and you could say we do have free will and bring a damn good argument supporting your position and how would we determine who is right if you can't prove it (you can not prove a having or lacking free will by the way).

Then how can you be born without human rights? If it is a tangible reality that means you could be born without it, then how can you be born without human rights?

This could be true, but it is a very human self-centered idea that seems to be disproven everywhere in the universe saying that humans aren't anything special in the eyes of the universe.

If you "effect" someone negatively, you violate someone’s rights as a person.

So when did humans start to have human rights? Was there suddenly a time when we had these rights or what?

How do you know? What makes you think that your version of human rights are the right one?

We understand what you are saying and actually agree more than you think we do but we just disagree on a few aspects. Well at least I do.

Once you join a society then you do have rights and I'm sure no one here denies that it is just that without a society, you don't have any rights because society invented that concept so people could live peacefully with each other.

Zip-ese

Well !! I didn't know that a language had been named after me ,
This could be fun !!!

Yeah, ugly bitch...I got that. You really did turn out to be the cunt everyone said you are...I would think if you look like that you would try to be a nicer person. You know, so you had SOMETHING going for you.

buby bubitch

Complete with the total inability to spell. Just like your hick people.