Lots of good advice here. Look after yourself, eat properly, get a lawyer and don't badmouth the wife to the children ever, are the things I'd repeat.
Wishing you strength.

I need something RIGHT NOW!

I don't know if I need advice, a kick in the head to go with the one to the balls, or what...

I love my wife.

She just called.

I was on the phone with the lawyer, who said "DO NOT ANSWER THE PHONE".

Shit.

I want to talk to her.

I want to reconcile with her. How can we get anything done if we can't talk?

And the longer I wait, what.... what if she wants to call it off? I guess I'll be pissing her off more, rejecting her, doing to her what I hated having done to me...

Seven times seventy. -- Charlie Brown.

Or. I dodged a bullet. I didn't get cornered into violating the restraining order. I didn't get maneuvered into saying something I'll regret. Or I missed the chance to talk to my son, who is with her. Or I missed the chance to hear some important news about one of the kids, hurt or something.

ggaaaaAAAAAHHHH!

Help!

Hang tight, Deuce. I expect your lawyer has the right idea. Don't try to second guess him/her, otherwise there isn't much point in paying for legal services. I certainly think there would be at least one more call if your wife needed to inform you of an injury. This won't be easy, but you have to tough it out for now.

If there is an emergency, she'll leave you a vm - and call you 20 more times in a row - you know that. Good luck buddy - hope today went well.

Ok, had another great post, lost it... booooooo!

short answer, she called again, left a nice, concerned message. Says to call her.

Cooler heads have prevailed and I will.. stay in my box for now. I am nothing if not law abiding.

shit.

We're proud of you, Deuce. I know it's tough, but you're doing well.

Oh, that lost post - I've been there, too. I've learned to start in a text editor for anything I think may get bigger than a couple of sentences. I copy and paste here when it's ready.

Well done, Deuce, I get the sense you just crossed the first of a series of hurdles. Your lawyer is more thn likely advising you right on not picking up the phone.

Short anecdote: a friend of mine, Ash, went through a divorce. His wife's idea. They were doing it without lawyers at first (though actually, she had sought legal advice without telling him), and she showed great concern for his welfare during the first few weeks, phoned him to see he was okay, was really good about access and stuff.....by the time she'd persuaded him to agree to the most appalling terms of divorce and maintenance, we'd (his friends) begun to spot a pattern and advised him to get a solcitor to act on his behalf. She went nuts, started trying to mess with his access rights, said he was violent, a bully etc etc, the whole works. Fortunately his solicitor was able to get him through it all, with decent access to his boys and maintenance payments that took account of both their incomes.

I'm not saying your wife is anything like Ash's wife...but the point is, he still loved her and that meant when they were 'doing it without solicitors' he was not acting adversarially towards her; she meanwhile was acting in an adversarial way towards him, because they were in fact in an adversarial situation.

Your wife has indicated behaviourally (I think, but this is just my opinion) that she is treating this divorce in an entirely adversarial way. You are on opposing sides here. You must remember that. Don't be fooled by your feelings into dropping your defenses, because your opponent may use that against you.

It's shit and it hurts, and many of my closest friends have been through it. I was fortunate that when my relationship ended we were co-habiting, rather than married and had no kids to think about. It was still shit and hurtful and traumatic and that was with us being friendly about it. Having to deal with all this other stuff as well must be so hard.

Hang in there mate. Now is not the time to be friends. It's not the time to be enemies either...but it really isn't a time for being friends. Be selfish to the extent that you protect yourself. You are a father, and obviously you want to provide for your children, but that does not mean you deserve to come away with nothing. Protect yourself. Don't let her (with or without intent) persuade you to act against your own interests.

Very good point, DanaC.
Hang in there deuce. You will get through this and come out on the other side.

If you don't believe me ask your attorney....She cannot "call off" a restraining order once it is granted to her. Now it's the states orders. She either really screwed up here- or she knows exactly what she's doing.
Right o- Dana and Shawnee......but i'm willing to take it a step further.
She shouldn't have played with restraining orders unless she was being threatened. Stay away from her. That is now permanently on your record and may effect future job prospects. Very destructive.
Once someone goes there don't come back ever. Either they aren't worth a damb or they really were in harm's way. In either case....take it seriously.
If you really were a threat, stay away until you get help.
If you weren't a threat....leave her stupid a**. Just for being a manipulative idiot that likes to play games with the lives of you and your kid(s).
Hang in there.
And remember: The first time- shame on you. The second time- shame on me.

First of all, none of us know her and everyone is turning her into a villian. She may well just want to talk. And frankly, we do not know anything about Deuce either except what he is posting. For all we know, they are faults on both sides. Let them work it out themselves.

No, not at all. She may be a wonderful woman, but as one who has already dealt with this, he must protect himself first.

To start with I read this with the same thought in mind. I left my husband (we didn't have children) and therefore won't automatically condemn the person leaving the relationship, even if they break the other person's heart.

However I think we have enough evidence for the position taken by Dwellars. I don't think she has necessarily been made out to be the villain - she is simply the one who has involved the law and put Deuce in a situation where he has to fight. She has physically removed their son and set something in place to deny him access to their joint property. I don't get the feeling she is a woman running scared, rather a woman who wants a man removed from her life. Her follow-up phone call also suggests she does not perceive him as dangerous.

Even Cicero, who advocates "leaving her stupid ass" qualifies it by saying the advice only counts if the restraining order was unnecessary.

I'm sure Deuce's wife feels her actions are justified and her friends probably think he is very much the villain of the piece. After all, she has the law on her side. Personally I think it's sad that it had to escalate to this and she wasn't able to move into a friend or relative's house and continue with counselling before getting on the financially draining path of legal interference. Who loses out in the end? Who would the money usually be spent on? It's a truism that the children always suffer when a relationship breaks down.

A) This isn't about her being a villain, this is about her being one party in a legal battle. Deuce is the other party.
B) We do not know her, and we only know what Deuce has posted, but the fact is Deuce has posted and we, the Cellar community have responded with our best intentioned advice.
C) Divorce is messy. Even the most civilised and rational people can become nasty when future happiness, finances, and access to the children are at stake.
D) If one party has engaged legal assistance, the other party can only effectively protect themselves by doing the same (unless they have the experience, knowledge and resources to represent themselves effectively....most people in the midst of an emotionally tumultuous divorce do not qualify for that).
E) See B. Deuce is a member of our community, his wife is not. Therefore our advice is to Deuce. This doesn't mean we wish his wife ill, or seek to demonize her....we simply want this to go as smoothly as possible for Deuce and are offering him advice in good conscience. Most of the people posting have either been through a similar situation, or have been there for friends who have.

The advice I have offered is the same advice I gave my friend when he went though his divorce. I gave similar advice to another friend whose husband was divorcing her and who was doing an excellent job of assassinating her character and making her look like an unfit mother, whilst to her face he appeared quite reasonable. I repeat....divorce is nasty. People do things and act in ways they would never do under any other circumstances. Doesn't make 'em bad people, does make them potentially dangerous to the wellbeing and future happiness of the person they are divorcing.

You are right. Divorce is nasty. Did anyone here stop to think that perhaps her intentions are to just talk? Almost everyone that has supported Deuce has jumped to conclusions that say she's the bad one. I don't think either one is bad. I think they are in a tough spot.

The advise I see is go after her Deuce. I could be wrong. I think the support he is receiving is good because everyone needs a support group when something like this happens. But the advise could be adding contempt where there may not otherwise be any. They should both be given the benefit of fairness. Just because she isn't a member of the Cellar Community doesn't mean we should be telling him to "pack her bags and put them at the end of the driveway". We also don't know that she is bashing him. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I hope that things work out well for the both of them.

This is not about good and bad. Put those concepts out of your head now, if you want to be of any use whatsoever in advising anybody in this situation. Divorce involves one of the most complicated emotional landscapes anyone is ever likely to find themselves wandering around in. This is not about how good or bad Deuce's wife is, it's about him engaging in a necessary act of self-preservation.

What really? That is your advice? Are you sure about that? Against his lawyer's advice, contrary to the experience of the vast majority of divorcees, contrary to the evidence of where she is already at in this process? Contrary to the entire trend of events as brought to the Cellar by Deuce intermittently over many weeks?

That is your advice to a man who is having to hold it together, clearly still loves the woman and is therefore in the extremely vulnerable position of having to defend himself against potential economic attack, and the possible limitations of access to his children, whilst his reputation is (if her accusations are untrue) besmirched to the point of permanently scarring his record.

Friend, I do not wish to sound arrogant, and I do not dismiss the possibility that she just wants to talk...but you are giving very bad advice. Even if she does truly, want to talk. It has been made very clear by her actions that this is happening. To 'go after her' at this point would be a dangerous denial of what is happening.

There will likely come a time, in the very near future, when enough has been nailed down that the lawyers will advise that some contact is made. But there are stages to go through. The stakes are high enough, why make it any harder on himself? Right now, when it's about as raw as it is ever going to get, let a third party deal with it.

Did his lawyer do a good job of protecting his interests AND negotiating an equitable solution to the assortment of problems you end up with in the divorce?

If the answer is yes, call him back and get the name of his attorney.

This, incidentally, is the correct way to choose a divorce lawyer.

They have been not talking for several months now. If there is any further talking to be done, it needs to be done by the lawyers.

I wish you would.

I know you are not my wife. I know you cannot speak for her. I know that. I know that.

Still...

Part of me wants to hear from her, even if it is through you. I know that is ridiculous. It is not ridiculous to want to understand, and I do want to understand. I don't think it is understandable.

Everything is so surreal. I can feel my tongue heavy in my mouth. Tears spilling down my cheeks--where did those come from? Navigating this mirror world, by braille, where all my instincts are backwards, where all my actions are unintended and all my intentions are stillborn, inert.

What is the lesson here? What is to be learned? What are the mistakes I'm suffering from and should be avoided in the future? Where is the profit from our good fortune and hard work?

What of the future, what will happen? What about our past? How did I get here?

When I first made the break with my ex, I had a very long talk with a *metro* male friend of mine, who was shattered when his gf of 7 years up and left him without a backward glance.

My ex, was going through this hellish emotional roller coaster. He couldnt believe this was happening to him and that it was over, I couldnt believe he didnt see it coming....things had been bad for months.

He couldnt let go, wouldnt let go. He begged, black mailed, gave me ultimatums and threats. The more he pushed, the more reserved and pragmatic I got. I didnt want to fight for what we *had* and couldnt see a point, he just couldnt get that.

Anyways, I commented to my friend about this roller coaster and he said he had the same reaction.

We *decided* that it was just that us girls (in this instance) had reconciled with ourselves, boxed everything up emotionally and shut that door....before we had broken the news to our male partners. So essentially, we had it all tidied up and knew it was over before our partners knew what was about to hit them.

I've been on the other side of that fence, been chewed up, spat out and wondered where the fuck that came from?

Again, my bf at the time had worked through everything within himself and he was more than ready to move on, then he hit me with the "its over, I dont love you anymore".

The only time I have seen the line blurred was in a particularly volatile relationship (not physically, emotionally), where we would break up at the drop of a hat, and then one or both of us would do whatever necessary for us to get back together.

Your questions I cant answer and most of them probably dont have an answer at all.

All I can tell you is that time does heal and you need to go through what you are going through.

DONT look for *mistakes* that you made, my ex made none.

The future? no one can predict what will happen, but you will get through it, you have too many wonderful friends and support here not too.

Just take one day at a time luv, thats all you can do.

Thank you.

sleepy now. and sad, melancholy. gonna read, then sleep.

Let's talk tomorrow.

I'm sorry, none of that was probably useful.

As you said, I cant speak for your wife.

I can look at her actions and make assumptions about them, but you know her better than any of us.

I know you want to hear from her and for her to explain what is happening....but...she may not be able too, she may be working things through herself.

Its the not knowing or being able to *fix* it...or getting the chance to fix it, that is probably eating you up....but (and again, you would know better than I), I gather she wouldnt be putting you through this on a whim....it sounds like she has done the *reconciling*.

Rest assured, if she wants things to change, she WONT just make one phone call and then go "oh well, he didnt answer, it was probably a bad idea anyway" and if she does do something like that....you dont want to be a part of it.

I'm sorry we cant make the hurt any less

I'm pretty sure that what kgg meant was that the advice she sees being given by others here is to "go after her," meaning "attack her before she attacks you." Not to try to reconcile with her.

But the problem is, fairness is only applicable when you know both parties. It would be nice if Deuce could step back from the recent events and say, "Oh well, let's try to make the best of a bad situation," but he has already indicated he's not in an emotional position to do that. Terms of the divorce aside, he has to stop being vulnerable before he can begin to appropriately react in any way. Part of that means severing the emotional ties with his wife. If that means demonizing her a bit before he can successfully move back to center, then that's what it means. 'I'll let you two work it out on your own, I hope all the best for you' is lukewarm at best, not really support at all. It is what he will receive from all his family and friends who do know the both of them. Sometimes people need stronger encouragement than that to get past things, before they can view them with a better, healthier perspective.

Ahh..thanks. I see that. I had misunderstood.


I think you've really got a good point there. The search for understanding, can take place some indefinate time in the future, right now, a little self-protection and enough anger to stop from turning it in on himself, will do Deuce a lot more good I think in the short term.

Sorry to talk about you in the third person there Deuce :P

Not at all. I am rapt. Please continue.

A couple of thoughts...

I am being very open here, especially about the hurt. I am opening my heart to everyone here. I fully expect my wife is reading these posts as well.

Some number of posts back, I forget where.... I do not demonize her. That is my vulnerability talking. I am not the Saddam Hussein I'm portrayed as in documents any more than she is Cruella De Vil. Please. Exaggerated hyperbolic histrionics is no substitute for reasoning together.

Some more of what the world looks like from my perspective:

I love my wife.

I love our son.

I believe, devoutly, that the greatest gift I can give my son is to love his mother. It is easy to see how those dovetail neatly together for me.

Loving her does not depend on living together though. The living arrangements are flexible. And, if she does not love me, and or does not live with me, that doesn't mean that we, together, cannot still do well by our son. And that, doing what is best for our son, is my primary consideration.

Defining what is best, and how to make that happen is not so easy. Let me back up a little bit. I think, no, I **KNOW** the best scenario is one in which father and mother are husband and wife and love each other and live together and both love the child and live with the child. That is clear to me. Unfortunately, my situation is missing a few of those elements, so finding the best scenario that is realistically possible is my quest now.

Shit. One of the biggest problems is that we're off on the wrong foot. You've all correctly observed that I have yielded the initiative, that we're in court now, and that her allegations have put me in a very unfavorable light. They have knocked me on my heels. I am in the position now of having to take care of myself *first* if I am to be in any position later to do the best for my son.

This is an unfamiliar situation for me. I have never thought of myself first. I have always thought of my wife and family first. Now it is different. It is very different. You know how the airline emergency drill instructs you to put the oxygen mask over your own face first before you try to render assistance to your child right next to you, well, I have to do it like that. We're both suffering, but if I am incapacitated, for whatever reason, I will be of no use to him. So, me first, then him.

That is the framework upon which hangs advice to me from many here and many in person that says "take care of yourself", "protect yourself", "harden yourself toward her", "counterattack her". These are on a continuum, and while they're all on the right track, I have limits as to what I am willing to do in the name of "taking care of myself" or "protecting myself".

I am unaccustomed to putting myself ahead of my wife or my children. I see the need, in the service of my greater goal. I understand and am willing to act accordingly, but like any new behavior, and in a new situation, I'm struggling with the learning curve, in addition to the burden of very difficult emotional circumstances.

But I am strong, and I am smart, and I am devoted to them. I am completely motivated to succeed, or die trying.

Deuce, you have my sympathy and admiration.

There will, hopefully, be a time when friendship is something you can work towards. You are only hardening yourself now, whilst the battle lines are drawn. You didn't ask to be at war, but you are and must deal with it accordingly. There is no shame in putting yourself first for this stage of things. Our society has spent the past twenty years telling mothers they should learn to put themselves first sometimes...and there are equally times when a father must do the same.

Keep posting, keep talking, this will get easier, you are strong enough to cope.

Absolutely, but she has decided that she no longer wants to be your wife. I'm sorry and I know thats hard to see, but that is her choice.

Yes you ALL are suffering, but the position you are now in, a very defensive one, was premeditated and decided upon by her - SHE has chosen this path for all of you. SHE has forced you to react accordingly. SHE has given you no choice. SHE has created this path. SHE has served you with the restraining order. SHE has served you with all the papers - SHE has affected your ability to see or talk to any of your children. SHE has forced you out of your home. SHE has chosen this path - SHE has given you no option other than to defend yourself, clear your name and rebuild your life. Then and only then can you again be the best father you can be to your son.

All normal, all good. You are on the right path - hang in there - we are here for you.

Just back from a walk. I had been reading the papers closely, for comprehension. Oh my god. No revelations, no new information, my first scan was only confirmed. yman, your remarks, as usual, are helpful. They help me focus, help me ignore the clamorous distractions. There are many cliches that fit here, but the net effect is that it's time to get to work. Nasty hard unpleasant work. But it's just work.

It's just work. Break it down. I have spent the afternoon doing triage. The whole package was just too overwhelming. So I made a list, I checked it twice, some naughty, some nice. The naughtiest was the temporary restraining order. The result of my triage revealed that set of three documents to be the most important today, right now.

I have to read them, comprehend them, understand them. This thing is radioactive, very dangerous. Violation of this order is a criminal offense, and subjects the violator to arrest. It is effective immediately. It lasts for one year unless changed.

I have been restrained from disturbing the peace of the other party or of any child. W. T. F. That is soooo broad.

I have been ordered to pay $xxxxxxx / month maintenance.

Ohhh!!! She's calling again!!!!!! RIGHT NOW. Call, talk to me. Son calls, talk to me. This is worm, and the restraining order is the hook.

I can't do this.

I am lost.

Deuce, you can do this. Keep putting one foot in front of the other. What have your lawyers said regarding phone calls from your son?

Well done on the triage approach. You're doing great, you're doing what is necessary. This too will pass.

Yup.

This is the knot at the end of the rope to which I'm clinging.

You are not alone - remember that! We are here and I'm sure you have your family and friends supporting you as well till all this weirdness gets sorted out. Things will be different, but theat doesn't mean they willl be worse - in some respects they will be better. Good luck tomorrow!

Deuce, I don't have much more to offer than what others have said. My only experience with divorce is through watching the 60% or so of friends and family we have had go through it. Expect the worse, hope for the best. Don't be to trusting. Decisions have been made and minds made up. Get a good lawyer who will protect your assets. I have watched more than one guy, who did not want the divorce, trust the other party to play fair only to go to that fateful day in court and be taken to the bank, or near bankruptcy, for 20 or more years. I personally would hire a private detective and see what else may be going on. Just be careful. Good luck.

I think you might have been responding to my post...and I think I left it open enough with my responses. Fact is...she made sure that it is illegal for them to talk, no matter what her intentions were at that time. No blame. Just the truth. I also did not blame her if the fault was his. I did not blame him if the fault was his. I blamed her if she perjured herself- if she was not in harm's way and stated that she was a victim. I do not know...but it is a common tactic. I saw this game play out once in my personal life and the kid suffered the most. He was almost killed by the heavy handed game playing of the adults involved. It turned out really, really badly.

Follow the attorney's advice to every letter and everything else will work itself out. Don't take any chances Deuce.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^See above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good morning to you all.

I am still interviewing/shopping for counsel. I have to pick TODAY. I have two more meetings today.

I have been through much in my life. Complicated childhood, parental strife, blended families, death, marriage, parenthood, financial struggles. A lot. I have never been this discombubulated. I have never been this conflicted, this uncertain. I deal with an unknown future all the time, professionally and personally. Figuring stuff out is "how I roll" to borrow a phrase from a recent post of another dwellar.

I have not yet figured this one out. I have parts of it figured out. I'm crystal clear that if I don't get my shit squared away, and right now mister, the other side will become reality by default. That's bad, m'kay?

My difficulties have a few important aspects. I don't know how to do what I want to do. But the pros do. I don't know how to pick the (relative) best pro. I'm going to be leaning very heavily, no, completely on my gut on this one. There aren't rules, there isn't a peer reviewed established "best practices" method of choosing counsel. I'll be winging it. That makes me somewhat uncomfortable. Normally, when the stakes aren't so high, I like exploring the unknown. Let's go for a ride and see where we wind up. Let's order something new from the menu. Let's go see something we haven't seen before. In those cases, if it goes well, yay. If it goes poorly, oh well. Max downside, an indigestible meal, or we're lost and we wasted a road trip, or we see a dumb show. No biggie.

But this time... if I choose poorly, I will have paid a lot of money and gotten an extremely unacceptable result. Recovering from that mistake will take a long time and will likely be even more expensive, though it is unlikely to be fatal. *breathe* Ok. So I guess I can pick without being paralyzed with fear of making a terminally wrong choice. The stakes are high, but I cannot avoid choosing poorly by not choosing any. That is obviously worse still. I'll know a lot more by the close of business today.

After you choose counsel, you should tell them about this website and your posts here so they can review what you have written. They need to be prepared if anything you have written here is presented in the courtroom by her attorney to be used against you.

I also suggest that you don't erase any messages your wife leaves for you on the answering machine/voice mail. Save them. It's possible they may come in handy later. The fact that she got a restraining order against you and is leaving messages for you instructing you to violate that restraining order can't be good for her position.

Your gut is a good start, but considering the amount of wringing it no doubt has endured of late, this advice might be better:

Divorce should not have to be adversarial, but sometimes (most often) it just is.

I have faith in you, Deuce. It sounds like you have been taking the steps you believe are best in the long run, though sometimes they are the most painful. You are stronger than you might sometimes think.

IMHO the best way to find a good lawyer is to ask around of people who have had similar experiences and find the one lawyer that is most adversarial to her lawyer. Find out who this guys most fierce competition is. Choose him. Remember this is about the next 20 years of your financial life and your ability to move on from here. Each of my brothers paid alimony for nearly 20 years, 20 fuuking years! Neither will have a dime when they die. It all went to the ex. They were never able to save a thing. Prepare for it to get ugly.

Is that to me or to Deuce?

To Deuce. Its great advice. That and the old adage - hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

When perceived nightmare is reality- it's really hard not to try and throw in the towel, shake hands, and let it be over.....it's just not going to be in this case.
When someone asks for the State's intervention- there is no going back to normal.

If you are going to do this, DO IT.
Separate your intellect from your emotion.
I rarely give this advice and hate to do it, but sometimes it is needed.
There comes a point where one need divest from what makes us make decisions based on compassion.
If you are going to do this, do it right, as it need be done. Listen to your lawyer and if you begin to win, when she calls... and she will...
Well... just listen to your lawyer.
I just want to say that I'm sorry it came to this dude, but if this is what needs to happen, really... make it happen and don't look back.
Not going to go into why the "game" of in-and-out of pain and "I wonder" harms everyone more than you can imagine, but it does.
IMO, for the sane, this is a one-way-street.

I am a chump.

Why so Deuce?

Fear.




F alse
E vidence
A ppearing
R eal

Fear is a *POWERFUL* motivator, and no one is immune. Not me, not you, not my wife, not our children.

Have you ever been to the ocean? To the beach? I have many times, and it's a beautiful place. The beauty of the ocean can distract one from the power of the moving water. Power to crush and kill. Fear is like that. It has the power to overwhelm, and lately for me, it comes over me like big ocean waves.

When I'm overtaken by one and being maytagged along the bottom, it feels like impending death. Hopeless. Each time (so far) I have managed to come up for air between waves, and to catch a little break or a reality check, between sets.

I just broke the surface of the last monster to crush me, and the salty air never tasted so sweet.

Someday, I hope to reach the shore, intact. I'll settle for being able to breathe for right now though.

Here comes another one, a big one.

Now is a good time to hyperventilate.

Hang in there Deuce. *smiles* It gets easier the further you swim.

Thinking about you man.

I don't want to swim further out. I'm trying to get to shore, where my family is.

At the risk of stretching this metaphor to breaking point...you need to get to a different shore.


I'm glad you posted though. I was just about to put out an APB on you :P

You're right. The metaphor is probably broken. But it is still true that I want to be with my family. Different shore, same shore, Dinah Shore, whatever. The one with my family--that's the one I'm heading toward.

I'm not in jail yet, yay! We have had a few good talks, and a few good arguments. The talks were good because goodwill resulted from them. The arguements, not so much. They were "good" because they were rip roaring arguments. Not good, not productive. :(

That right there, that inability to argue constructively is one of our biggest problems. We're for sure arguing now, still, but it's through expen$ive proxie$. Better we should just learn to work out our differences better.

gah. who said it? somebbody said let them work it out. Man, that sounds appealing. I want to work it out, I just don't know how, when anything I say can be read as an attack on her. How do I do that?

We have so much to go on, and we're stuck arguing about he said she said. It's really discouraging. Even at this stage, we need to communicate. I want to communicate. To make myself understood, and to understand her. At this point, we're talking with legal papers, and even those are confusing. Can't we just, you know, talk? Understand each other?

How the hell do all you people do it?

rkzenrage, you are excused from answering. I read many of your posts about how your brutal candor has eliminated all marital friction, speeding all husband and wife communication along shining steel rails unimpeded by any emotion. I'm not capable of that. *My* heart's in it, 100%.

How would you all suggest I communicate with her?

I'm not ready to file my own divorce papers yet, and the longer I can defer that decision, the better. That's not communicating, that's telling. I'm looking for some mode / method / magic trick that we can use to understand each other?

I'm open to suggestions. Please.

Honestly Deuce? I can't offer any advice on that. I think you stand more chance of understanding each other, after the divorce is complete and the dust has settled. I may be wrong. You are in the situation, not me, but I don't at any point get a sense from what you've said that this is anything but part of a process which will result in the dissolving of your marriage. The more you can reduce the impact of that on your future chances of friendship (and that happens often) during this process, is in my opinion, to the good. Getting involved in tempestuous arguments is unlikely to help that.

It's tough. I can only imagine what it must be like to have the heartbreak of a relationship ending and all this shit on top of it. But you are getting through it. That's what you are doing right now.

Maybe I am wrong, and talking would be a good thing to do. I don't know. But my instincts still tell me you should listen to your lawyers.

Can we have some input from people who've been through it?

My ex and I are friends, but it wasn't always easy. I hope you can get to that point, deuce. You have to be so very patient. Hang in there!

Right now things are likely so fraught it may be difficult to interract 'normally'.

True, DanaC...sometimes you have to wait, move slowly...when you're in the middle of all this it is just too painful.

If she hadn't filed a restraining order, I'd suggest counseling of some sort. It helps some people - not all people. Couples counseling helped me for awhile. Until I realized my husband just didn't have it in him to be honest - not with me, not himself, not the counselor, not anyone. Proof you both have to want it to work in order for it to work.

Which brings me to me next point: she doesn't want it to work. A restraining order is a pretty clear indication that she either (1) fears you and is removing you from her life, or (2) she's playing some kind of sick game because she wants it all on her terms, and do you really want any of that crazy-bitch action?

As long as there is a restraining order, do not have contact with the woman, even if she attempts to lure you into it. The law is clear, and there will be no excuse for you to violate the order, even if she initiates contact. She may be putting on a nice act to get you to do what she wants (i.e. make the divorce easy for her, and not rack up any more legal bills fighting her for it.) Actions speak louder than words, and right now her actions are divorcing and restraining you.


Letting go may be an option to consider here. Sometimes we want what we just can't have. I didn't want to get divorced. But I didn't want to be miserable more than that. It's not the end of the world. And it's been my experience that, for the most part, time heals all wounds. Have faith that this is happening for a reason - that Life is taking you in another direction than the one you were previously heading in, and one day it will all be clear to you.

Deuce, I can't comment on the US legal side of things, but I do agree with others that have posted here that it seems that your wife does not want the marriage to continue, and feels sufficiently strongly about it to set legal restrictions on your actions/contact with her and your child. As others have said this can only be for one of two reasons: either through actual fear of you, or through a wish to manipulate things to her own advantage. Only you can tell which of those is her motivation - think about it carefully. It's also worth repeating that if she is subjecting you to a restraining order which limits your contact with her, then it is hypocritical of her (at best) to be ringing you and urging you to contact her.
The best things I think you can do under the circumstances are to look out for yourself, get good legal advice, and never badmouth your wife to your child. Blake said it best - if you love something you must be able to let it go. Let your wife go.
I wish you strength, and the loving support of your friends and family at this most difficult of times.

It's been a while since Deuce mentioned her calling. Perhaps she hasn't for a while. And, Deuce, have you called her? You say you have been talking and that not all the talks have been bad. There must be some progress towards the good if you can call it that. Is she initiating all of your conversations or are you a willing partner?

I will still play the devil's advocate and give them both the benefit of the doubt. Not knowing either one, I will not condemn either. I hope things work our both both of you so that you may, hopefully, come out the other side as, perhaps, friends instead of enemies for your sons sake.