Radar, the Constitution is but an instrument of "We the People" and regardless as to whether or not the Constitution grants the federal government authority to regulate immigration, we the people have.

The Constitution is not like documents purported to be derived from a higher power (e.g. the Bible representing the word of God), it is acknowledged to be a product of people and people are known to be fallible and to have their limitations. The Constitution will continually be subjected to trial by fire in order to determine its current relevancy in part; or, as a whole. To promote its survivability, it was created as a living document which is why a fundamental reading will never supplant interpretation for the times. That which is now unconstitutional may become constitutional in the future and vice versa. It is essentially the burden of pundits against change to demonstrate that "We the People" are better served by strictly adhering to the Constitution in its present form; because, if push comes to shove, we the people can modify or rescind it.

You'll have to come up with a better rationale for why the federal government shouldn't regulate immigration other than because the Constitution doesn't provide for it. The Constitution works for the people, not the other way around.

You claim that "We the People" have granted the federal authority to regulate immigration even if it's not in the Constitution. This is false. We the people have given the federal government certain powers and We the people have limited those powers to being only what is enumerated in the Constitution. We the people have prohibited the federal government from creating or enforcing any laws which do not pertain to those specific powers enumerated in the Constitution.

The only way for "We the People" to grant such power to the federal government (which violates every principle America was built upon) is to amend the Constitution. This has not been done yet.

The Constitution isn't a "living document". It's the highest law in our land. It's higher than all 3 branches of government, and it's the foundation of freedom and peaceful society in America. Yes, it was created by men. And luckily for us, it was created by men who knew they didn't know everything. This is why they allowed it to be changed, but not changed easily.

No part of government that was unconstitutional in 1790 is Constitutional now unless the Constitution has been amended to allow it. That which is unconstitutional now, may only become Constitutional later through an amendment to the Constitution and NOT an act of Congress that is ignored by the Supreme Court.

The Constitution was created to put chains on the federal government and to keep most power in the hands of the states and in the people themselves.

I most certainly do not have to come up with a "better rationale" for why the government shouldn't regulate immigration other than it being a direct violation of the highest law in our land. The Constitution works for the people by limiting the powers of our federal government. Limiting immigration when the Constitution prohibits it is not working for the people.

The Constitution isn't to be ignored or thought of as some quaint old relic of our past. It's the foundation of our entire society and it is what makes America more free than other nations. It locks down our government and keeps real power in the hands of the people. It's what makes us citizens rather than subjects. The Constitution doesn't require interpretation. It's meaning and intent are clear and are in simple English, not Swahili. No interpretation is needed, and those who try to interpret it are usually looking for loopholes or ways around it, or to destroy it.

Ah hell, we've been through all this before. You and I don't agree on this. I have to do more constructive things with my time, like study Russian. It's been a nice discussion, again.

Have a good one.

If the constitution is the be all and end all of every rule in your society, why then do you need to have elections or a government at all? Surely if everyone just read the constitution there'd be no need for any of that expensive stuff. Everyone would just 'get it' like Radar does and the world would be full of Radars and no one would pay income taxes either, which would be great I'm sure.

The sorts of things I'm not clear on though, is if there's no government etc, then who's going to regulate the people who don't 'get it' like Radar does? And surely if there were such a body somehow, and they tried to 'make sure' everyone 'gets it', then wouldn't that just be another form of...hmmm...gee, what's the word? Oppression?

The federal government should do very little. It should be here to settle disputes among other states, and to do those things listed in the Constitution and nothing else. Everything else is up to the state. We do still need elected people to do the exact things mentioned by the Constitution, but nothing else.

Americans didn't pay taxes for the first 137 years of America's existence. We did pretty damn good at becoming one of the world's greatest powers during that time.

I'm certainly not an anarchist. I merely insist on the government adhering to the limitations on its powers and that it do nothing outside of those enumerated powers.

All elected officials should fear for their lives if they step outside the bounds of the Constitution.

Crap, I can't believe I"m still here. When was the 16th amendment ratified?

In 1894 an income tax was created and struck down by the Supreme Court. On July 2nd 1909 Congress passed what would later become the 16th amendment. It was never legally ratified, but it was fraudulently ratified by Philander Knox on February 3, 1913 (The same year the Federal reserve was created).

Both the Federal Reserve, and Income taxes have wrecked America and both were created under the Taft administration. Taft is widely accepted as the single most corrupt President of all time...with the possible exception of George W. Bush.

Technically the Federal Reserve Act (blatantly unconstitutional) was created under Taft, but was enacted under Woodrow Wilson's administration. It was enacted on December 23, 1913 right before Christmas with barely enough people to make up a quorum. Woodrow Wilson signed it into Law because his adviser (Colonel Edward Mandell House) told him too.

Later, Woodrow Wilson realized what he did and said...

[quote=Woodrow Wilson]"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."
- Woodrow Wilson

My statement stands as factual since this practice is in practical application. The part of your statement that I've placed in bold type is the defect in your position. The federal government already has immigration regulatory effect under the "law" (figuratively speaking) of implied consent. We the People have chosen not to stop it from happening at this time. The Constitution is just a piece of paper with writing on it: it requires people to make it happen.

Which is not to say that it won't be done in consonance with every principle America will build a successful future upon.

You're playing with the semantics of the terms "living document" and "Living Constitution." My point is that the Constitution was created with a provision for changes and you acknowledge above that it was.

There's room for agreement on this point among proponents for both the Living Constitution and Originalism. See the Judicial Activism paragraph in the above linked web page.

The Constitution, as created, also put chains on categories of We the People.

Yes, it is. Furthermore, your reluctance "to come up with a 'better rationale' for why the government shouldn't regulate immigration" is why We the People are allowing it to happen.

Those who try to interpret the Constitution for the times we live in are striving to maintain it as the foundation of our evolving society. Those who claim that no interpretation is needed undermine the evolution of this great society by favoring stagnation in pursuit of their own agendas.

Those who wish to read about the Living Constitution theory of constitutional interpretation versus Originalism can get the gist of the matter from Wikipedia.

There is no defect in my position. The defect in your position is that you don't recognize the indisputable fact that the powers of the government are limited strictly by the U.S. Constitution.

My position is practical in its application and was used successfully in practice for the first 100 years of America's existence before the government started routinely violating it and America started going down the toilet.

The Federal Government has absolutely zero implied powers and is in fact PROHIBITED from having implied powers by the 10th amendment.

You are saying that because the people haven't stopped it, this means they consent to it. This is like saying a woman who didn't struggle to your satisfaction while being raped, really wanted it.

The Constitution isn't merely a "piece of paper" and isn't a "living document". The Constitution is the foundation of all our government. Without strict limits on the powers of our government, America is no better than Nazi Germany.

Not at all. The timeless principles which built America are as true and practical today as they were at the time the founders created the Constitution. Violating those principles will not build a successful future. It will bury any chance for a successful future.

No, it actually doesn't. The Constitution does nothing to limit or infringe upon our rights. The Constitution (as created) includes all amendments that were legally ratified throughout America's history. They are part of the creation.



[b]No, it isn't. No violation of the Constitution on the part of the government is working for the people. If the people want the federal government to have authority over immigration, it takes nothing less than a Constitutional amendment. Stopping the government from violating the Constitution is the highest of all rationales. There are none better.



Those who try to "interpret" the Constitution are trying to find ways around it or to violate it. If they want to change it, there is one and only one way to allow government to have powers outside the scope of the Constitution and that is through a Constitutional amendment. The "living document" nonsense you keep linking to means that the Constitution can be changed by amendments.

You don't "interpret" the Constitution to mean what you want. You amend it to say what you want, and you need 3/4 of both houses to do this. Nothing else is acceptable, and nothing else is working for the people. All violations of the Constitution by government are wrong regardless of someone's intentions.

When you allow the government to violate the Constitution for even the best reason, you open the door to abuse and for people to violate it for the most heinous, racist, xenophobic, and evil reasons....like restricting immigration.

I guess the illegals will not get to vote now. To bad, so sad.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

True, but since there are no illegals, we don't have to worry much about them voting. All non-citizen immigrants can't vote.

One thing that should be changed is that everyone convicted of a crime should have 100% of their rights restored to them when released from prison. That includes owning a gun, voting, etc.

In fact, they should be allowed to vote while still in prison. Voting booths should be setup for prisoners.

Or we could just tell them they are voting booths and then turn on the gas.:eek:

I would like to offer, "The Federal Government Has No Imagination Powers".

Ok carry on.
:)

That goes without saying.

Kinda harsh for non-violent pot smokers or growers don't you think?

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/uploade...lly-793875.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...x/img_0190.jpg

http://sandiego.indymedia.org/images/2005/07/110248.jpg

Ohoh, I get it! You're saying that anyone who doesn't support illegal immigration is a racist! Good argument, sir.

:headshake

Thanks lookout. I didn't want to be the first to disagree again.

I only got it because I'm white. and shave my head. and am strongly against illegal immigration. so obviously i'm racist.

I didn't say that, but a huge percentage are, if not most. Those are photos from actual minuteman and SOS gatherings.

and if i posted a picture of a fat, drunk mexican stealing hubcaps would i be more or less guilty of stereotyping than you?

ORLY?!?

Where are your statistics?

New poll!
:D

How about we just post pictures of illegal immigrants filling prisons.

Immigration Issue Centers : Immigration & Society

Criminal Aliens

The criminal alien problem is growing.

Criminal aliens—non-citizens who commit crimes—are a growing threat to public safety and national security, as well as a drain on our scarce criminal justice resources. In 1980, our federal and state prisons housed fewer than 9,000 criminal aliens. By the end of 1999, these same prisons housed over 68,000 criminal aliens.1 Today, criminal aliens account for over 29 percent of prisoners in Federal Bureau of Prisons facilities and a higher share of all federal prison inmates.2 These prisoners represent the fastest growing segment of the federal prison population. Over the past five years, an average of more than 72,000 aliens have been arrested annually on drug charges alone. New issue paper.

Continued illegal immigration aggravates the problem.

Despite the Border Patrol making over one million apprehensions last year, they estimate they miss two or more illegal bordercrossers for every apprehension. Most enter for short periods, but there is an estimated net increase of about 300,000 a year from illegal bordercrossers who stay. An additional net increase of 200,000 comes from people who enter legally as nonimmigrants and then violate their status. Among the alien federal prisoners, over half (55 percent) were illegally in the United States at the time of their conviction.

Administering justice to criminal aliens costs the taxpayer dearly.
Incarceration of criminal aliens cost an estimated $624 million to state prisons (1999) and $891 million to federal prisons (2002), according to the most recent available figure from the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

The New York State Senate Committee on Cities estimates that the annual criminal justice costs for criminal aliens in New York is $270 million. The Committee has called for a national moratorium on immigration to help alleviate this problem.3 According to the Illinois Governor’s Office, Illinois spends over $40 million just on the incarceration of criminal aliens. The cost to Florida’s judicial and correction system for criminal aliens was $73 million in 1993. 4 In 1988, there were 5,500 illegal immigrants in California’s prisons. By fiscal year 1994- 1995, that is estimated to have increased to more than 18,000 illegal immigrants in state prisons—a three-fold increase. California taxpayers have spent over a billion dollars in the last five years to keep these convicted felons in prison, and the FY 9495 cost of incarcerating these offenders exceeded $375 million.5 The federal government has begun to reimburse heavily alien-impacted states for some of the costs of illegal alien prisoners in their state prisons. For 1996, Congress appropriated $300 million for this program.

Many criminal aliens are released into our society to commit crimes again.

Too often, criminal aliens are not identified in local and state jails, the INS is not informed of their presence, detention facilities are not available when they are released, they fail to report for deportation, or they return to the United States after deportation. In March 2000, Congress made public Department of Justice statistics showing that, over the previous five years, the INS had released over 35,000 criminal aliens instead of deporting them. Over 11,000 of those released went on to commit serious crimes, over 1,800 of which were violent ones (including 98 homicides, 142 sexual assaults, and 44 kidnappings). In 2001, thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court, the INS was forced to release into our society over 3,000 criminal aliens (who collectively had been convicted of 125 homicides, 387 sex offenses, and 772 assault charges).6

What can be done?
We must secure our borders. Denying jobs to illegal aliens through a centralized secure identity verification system is important to that effort.

We must assure that the criminal conviction of an alien leads to deportation and permanent exclusion from the United States.
Asylum applicants should be screened expeditiously and excluded if their claims are not credible. Even if they appear to have credible claims, they should be detained until background checks are done.
Other corrective measures include greater INS and local government cooperation to identify criminal aliens, additional detention facilities for those in deportation proceedings, and improved databases and screening procedures to identify deported aliens if they try to return here either overtly or surreptitiously.

Other aliens not included in this total include immigrants who have become U.S. citizens (not included in the federal prison data), aliens being held for trial and some awaiting deportation but not convicted in the United States, e.g., the Cuban Marielitos.

National Institute of Corrections, Federal Bureau of Prisons, June 2003.
“Our Teeming Shore,” New York State Senate Committee on Cities, Sen. Frank Padavan, Chr.; Jan. 1994.
“The Unfair Burden: Immigration’s Impact on Florida,” Executive Office of the Governor; March 1994.
“California’s Illegal Immigration Costs: A Call for Federal Leadership,” Office of the Governor; 1994.
Zadvydas v. Davis (U.S. 2001).
Updated 10/02

http://www.fairus.org/

If you look at all three photos, it's the same fringe group of racists.....I don't base my stats. on one group do I?

I know a lot of people that don't agree with illegal immigration. And I don't know any racists...

From the GAO (Full Report here: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf )

How many incarcerated: • Criminal aliens incarcerated increased from about 42,000 at year-end 2001 to about 49,000 at year-end 2004. Country of citizenship: • For 2004, the majority of incarcerated criminal aliens were identified as citizens of Mexico. Costs of incarceration: • We estimate the federal cost of incarcerating criminal aliens totaled about $5.8 billion from 2001 through 2004: • direct federal costs ($4.2 billion) and • federal reimbursements to state and local governments ($1.6 billion).

How many incarcerated: • Fiscal year 2002—SCAAP reimbursed all 50 states for incarcerating about 77,000 criminal aliens. • Fiscal year 2003—SCAAP reimbursed 47 states for incarcerating about 74,000 criminal aliens. • 5 state prison systems incarcerated about 80 percent of these criminal aliens in fiscal year 2003—Arizona, California, Florida, New York, and Texas. Country of citizenship: • Data on citizenship of criminal aliens reimbursed through SCAAP not available. • In mid-2004, most of the foreign-born inmates for the 5 state prison systems with the most criminal aliens were born in Mexico (60 percent). Costs of incarceration: • We estimate that 4 of these 5 states spent a total of $1.6 billion in fiscal years 2002 and 2003 to incarcerate SCAAP criminal aliens and were reimbursed about $233 million through SCAAP.

How many incarcerated: • Fiscal year 2002—SCAAP reimbursed 752 local jurisdictions for incarcerating about 138,000 criminal aliens. • Fiscal year 2003—SCAAP reimbursed 698 local jurisdictions for about 147,000 criminal aliens. • 5 municipal and county jails incarcerated about 30 percent of these criminal aliens in fiscal year 2003—Los Angeles County, California; New York City, New York; Orange County, California; Harris County, Texas; and, Maricopa County, Arizona. Country of citizenship: • Data on citizenship of criminal aliens reimbursed through SCAAP not available. • In fiscal year 2003, most of the foreign-born inmates from these 5 jails were born in Mexico (65 percent). Costs of incarceration: • We estimate that 4 of these 5 local jails spent a total of $390 million in fiscal years 2002 and 2003 to incarcerate SCAAP criminal aliens and were reimbursed about $73 million through SCAAP

The above GAO report also contains statistics for the specific crimes committed.

If you can't find the racist in the room, it's probably you. Also, there is no illegal immigration in America. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

I don't think anyone wants illegal immigration in America, not even the undocumented and legal immigrants who are accused of being "illegals" by racists, idiots, and xenophobes.

Federation for American Immigration Reform
Washington, D.C.
www.fairus.org

Founded in 1978 by John H. Tanton, the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) is one of the country's best-established anti-immigration groups — and the richest beneficiary among them of the largesse of the infamous Pioneer Fund.

The Fund, which has long subsidized dubious studies of the alleged links between race and intelligence, awarded FAIR $1.2 million between 1985 and 1994, according to the Institute for the Study of Academic Racism. FAIR now says that it has severed its links to the controversial Fund.

Today, FAIR claims a staggering 70,000 members, although that number is almost certainly inflated. Tanton remains on FAIR's board and also is the publisher of The Social Contract Press, which sells racist anti-immigrant tracts.

Dan Stein, the group's executive director, has warned that certain immigrant groups are engaged in "competitive breeding" aimed at diminishing white power. Rick Oltman, FAIR's western representative, has spoken before and worked with the racist Council of Conservative Citizens.

Garrett Hardin, a FAIR board member, has argued that aiding starving Africans is counterproductive and will only "encourage population growth." Overall, FAIR blames immigrants for crime, poverty, disease, urban sprawl and increasing racial tensions in America, and calls for a drastic cut in the numbers of those allowed in.

No, 'dar, I don't spend my time "finding" racists. Maybe if you spend your time finding racists in rooms, it's probably you. Being a maniac. Obssessed with the idea that all whiteys are racists.

Oh illegal immigration does exist my dear, to your chagrin!

;)

Oh, and try to insinuate that I am a racist again, and see what happens, you ***-**** ****-****.

That makes me angry. As you can see. Not because "because it's true" kind of angry. The angry that says that "you don't know what the fuck you are talking about" kind of angry.

The problem with your whine is that the majority of things they post are well footnoted and referenced. For example:

Information on Criminal Aliens Incarcerated in Federal and State Prisons and Local Jails
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf

That's a racist comment. I have never said that "all" of anyone are anything. I've said that a large percentage (perhaps the majority) of those who support the blatantly unconstitutional federal immigration laws in America are racist...and yes, they absolutely are without any doubt, 100% unconstitutional and anyone who says otherwise is a liar or an idiot.

Yes, illegal immigration does exist, just not in America where our founders didn't grant the federal government any authority to create or enforce immigration laws and where they actually prohibited the federal government from doing so.


You'll cry?

The fact remains that all federal immigration laws and the departments who enforce them are 100% unconstitutional...PERIOD. This means that those who accuse undocumented and completely legal immigrants who come here of being "illegals", they are doing so because they are...

A) Stupid

B) Racist

or

C) Liars

You are one of these. If I was wrong with racist, you're probably just stupid or a liar, or hell, you could be all three.


I know how you feel. I am used to seeing that every time some idiot claims undocumented immigration is illegal or posts bogus statistics from fake or racist organizations like fairus.org or loudobbs.com, etc

None of these people has any fucking clue what they are talking about.

This discussion has certainly taken a strange turn.

Hardly a discussion. We are all just waiting for him to blow up. He will be on the news one day after conducting a mass shooting in his local post office.:rolleyes:

The problem with your stupidity and intellectual dishonesty (assuming you've even got enough brain cells to use the word "intellectual" to describe you) is you don't even read your own posts.

In GAO document you posted, they define criminal alien as...

Noncitizens who are residing in the United States LEGALLY or illegally and convicted of a crime.

As I stated earlier, prisons don't keep track of the number of undocumented immigrants. They only keep track of non-citizens who have committed crimes. While I contend that over half of these crimes are committed by those who are here with papers, we can divide by half the number you posted.

This means in all U.S. Prisons there were 38,500 undocumented immigrants in all of America's prisons. According to most of the racist, lying, xenophobic, and retarded sites that your ilk use there are over 20 million undocumented immigrants in America. This means less than a quarter of 1 percent of undocumented immigrants are convicted of crimes.

According to this New York Times Article from 5 days ago, the U.S. has 2,258,983 criminals behind bars.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us...hp&oref=slogin

Let's subtract the 38,500 undocumented immigrants from this number to get 2,220,483. The U.S. Population is 301,139,947. Subtract 20 million for undocumented immigrants so you have 281,139,947. This means we have 789 American citizens per 1000 in the population who are criminals. There are 193 undocumented immigrants per 1000 in the population of undocumented immigrants who are criminals.

American citizens are more than 4 times as likely to be criminals than undocumented immigrants.

If you realize that 11% of our federal prisoners are there for not complying with unconstitutional federal immigration laws (aka non-criminals) that number becomes significantly higher.

Undocumented immigrants are overwhelmingly less likely to commit crimes than American citizens and they most certainly are not the ones filling our jails.

What's that you whining little bitch? You forgot the third option:

D) Not stupid enough, liar enough, or racist enough to fall for any of your shit.

You are sitting there with your thumb directly up your ass. That doesn't make me any of those choices.

Does not change the fact that illegal aliens cost this country billions more than they contribute. It would not matter if they were a mere 10% of the prison population. How many they are is less of an issue than how much they are costing us.

From the GAO report:

Data represent only a portion of the total population of criminal aliens who may be incarcerated at the local level, since SCAAP does not reimburse localities for all criminal aliens.

And yes they do keep track of the numbers, page 13:

State and local jurisdictions voluntarily submit data annually on inmates they suspect to be criminal aliens for possible reimbursement. The program reimburses these jurisdictions for criminal aliens who

• were convicted of a felony or two misdemeanors and incarcerated for a minimum of 4 days and
• entered the U.S. without inspection, or were in immigration removal proceedings at the time they were taken into custody; or were admitted as a nonimmigrant and failed to maintain nonimmigrant status.1 {Illegal Aliens}

Hate to burst your bubble again but they do keep track of the data on Illegal Aliens:

ILLEGAL ALIENS
Assessing Estimates of
Financial Burden on
California

http://www.gao.gov/archive/1995/he95022.pdf

360 MILLION DOLLARS and that was in 1994! {just for prisons}

Medicade took a bigger hit.

The Wall Street Journal:

The Underground Economy
Illegal Immigrants and Others Working Off the Books Cost the U.S. Hundreds of Billions of Dollars in Unpaid Taxes

http://wsjclassroom.com/archive/05ap...nderground.htm

Do they keep any stats on how many get under the table jobs and send the money home versus how many join gangs and sell drugs?

Huge problem:

http://www.urban.org/publications/410366.html

Or the ones that do both?

The funniest thing I have seen: A woman paid under her ex-husband's name and social. (all of it was fake however)
For 17 years.

Any stats on that?

Not that it's funny. Because fraud isn't f'ing funny.

That would be a bit hard to track. There is information about how much money goes out vs stays here to be taxed.

"It was not uncommon for the illegal aliens to make it clear that they were here for one purpose and one purpose alone, to make as much money as possible as quickly as possible and send it all home."
http://www.newswithviews.com/Cutler/michael23.htm

On Gangs:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200805/world-in-numbers

"looter mentality".......I like that. That's true sometimes. Not all the time. But definately sometimes...

The problem with your thinking is that you pulle the number 38,500 out of your ass. You can't support your numbers with real data.

This study from NY completely puts your numbers to shame. 36% were illegal.

http://www.docs.state.ny.us/Research...rn_Inmates.pdf

Damn Radar who you think you are TW?

Jinx, about half way down. The money trail with refernces for the data:

http://immigrationcounters.com/datasource.html

I doubt that 78.9% of the population are criminals - just sayin.....

Yea, he has a problem with math.

Like most things you post, that is the exact opposite of the truth. Undocumented immigrants contribute BILLIONS more in taxes than they cost us in services.

They are not costing American tax payers a single penny. They are a net gain to the economy and the tax base. And no, the prison system does not keep stats of legal vs. illegal immigrants. The only classify non-citizens (both documented and undocumented) as "criminal aliens"

No, just missing a couple of zeros. It's per hundred thousand.

I used national statistics, not state statistics numbnuts.

Some illegal aliens contribute. Most do not.

Most of the ones that used to work where I worked in the past aren't contributing because they can't. Their only documents are fake. This means that they got a hold of someone's legitimate record and are paying in under someone elses tax id. Or what they are giving is completely fake and giving out a random number. Most of them aren't dumb enough to do that. Then there are the ones working under the table. This makes statistics for the documented workers null and void. I used to go to work knowing that I didn't know any of the staffs real names. I am glad they weren't all the same name because that would have sucked.

I find working under an assumed name and number to be highly criminal because that is how I was raised. I can't tell you how much shit has been pulled that I have seen, but it's a lot. If we turned the tables and I started to do any of that, the authorities would be all over my ass for fraud. Being undocumented forces people to do criminal acts to try to be practical and get jobs, cars etc...

That puts people like me that have a responsibility to maintain the books when you have a boss with this kind of hiring practice in place, at odds. And you have several moral questions for yourself when you go home at night, after you find out exactly what you have been doing.

Gathering statistics using documents that are faked or don't exist is crazy-making. I really liked some of the people that were on my team that were "documented". Heh but after being there for awhile I asked and "documented" was true. Just not the whole truth. Sure I have documents. Not mine..but I have them. Well fuc**. Lots of the documented paid for them...not sure where or how.

Most of them work and they buy things. Most do not collect any kind of public assistance. Whatever the number is of those who contribute, it amounts to billions and billions more paid in taxes than they use in services.

It doesn't matter if they are contributing to the tax base under someone else's social security #. They pay income taxes into the system and they rarely if ever collect from any social programs (other than public education...which they help pay for). Those taxes are used just like anyone who is a natural born citizen, or a documented immigrant. These people never collect from social security either, yet they pay billions into it.

Working under an assumed name or number is most certainly not criminal. If you believe it to be, you must have been raise poorly.

I have a right to work anonymously. I have a right to travel anonymously. If I want to call myself Uncle Sam and work for lemonade rather than money, or I want to work for cash, I have a right to do so and no other person or government has any right to any of what I've earned.

Unlike you, I was raised to know that stealing what others earn is wrong. Income taxes are theft.

It's funny that you are all about being patriotic, and you still feel defrauding the government overtly, thereby defrauding the state, and your co-workers, and new country is ok.

As long as someone is paying in, the criminal act isn't criminal? I'm done talking to you. You are a completely illogical nut-bag.

Using someone elses name for documentation is criminal no matter how you slice it, in this country. Using their designated number is also criminal.

You are starting to seem like an advocate of criminality, and fraud, more than just an insane asshole. I have met a lot of undocumented advocates..you are the worst however, because you don't give a shit about breaking the systems in place or the law.
I really can't even entertain a flame war with someone that is so far out there.

Get your metal hat on as I think the aliens have melted your brain. Too insane for me. I'm out.

I'm with Cic on this one - but my parting shot is on this statement
Not if they work under the table...