Or vice-versa if you're in Korea or Vietnam.

It's no secret that I can't stand UG. He is among the most worthless, uneducated, disgusting, unlibertarian, foul, and most egotistical people I've ever had the displeasure of knowing. If I had a dog and he was on my doorstep begging me for help, I'd even help a piece of shit like UG and feed my dog table scraps rather than buying special dog food, toys, treats, etc. because I value the lives of people over dogs.

That's not to say I don't value the lives of dogs or other pets. I loved my dog Sparky and my dog Bernard very much and I cried when Bernard died. When my first wife and I divorced, she gave away Sparky to hurt me. Then she had the nerve to call me and ask for his breeding papers for the new owner. Anyway, that's a different story for a different thread.

Filet of Nigerian Child or Mexican Minced Boy - only for the discriminating cat. ;)

Not that bland soylent green either, it's all in the spices and marinating. A good cook can make even those tough little buggers taste good. ;)

I think it's an admirable attitude Radar. And in truth, I also care more about people than animals. I think where I take issue with what you said is the bit about if the cost of vets is more than the amount paid for the animal in the first place, that's it, time to say goodbye.

I have a problem with that because that's the attitude I have towards electrical goods: if the cost of repair is more than the cost of replacement, why bother?

Also: when you buy a puppy, that's exactly what you're buying: a puppy (or a kitten). A creature that is yet to grow into what it eventually will be. Later on, you have a dog (or cat) who has moulded itself to your home and life, under your influence. Why would a creature who has spent 10 years (for example) moulding itself to you and learning to be your companion be worth the same money to you as an unknown quantity?

I don't spend a lot on Pilau. I buy him new toys every so often, maybe three or four dogtoys a year. I buy him a new collar or lead when he needs one. He gets food every day and that includes a small portion of gravy bone biscuits. None of these are expensive items. But I will spend whatever I need to at the vets, because I am responsible for his health and happiness. I became responsible for his health and happiness the day I removed him from his mother at the age of 8 weeks.

These are creatures who've been specifically bred as companions. They are, by nature, social animals who remain in family groups. They are denied canine family groups and instead expected to confom to human families. Which they do. As indeed they have done for thousands of years.

he does his duty as a dog: he guards my house from unwanted guests (unfortunately this includes the postman but that's probably my fault for not training him properly:P) he guards me and protects me when we are walking (again, he protects me a little too enthusiastically, but as far as he's concerned this is his job). He doesn't go off-duty until I am in bed. He does his bit; I do mine.

Besides...*smiles* I made his mother a promise to look after her baby.

I paid 60 bux for Carly. What she has given to me in return is priceless. She is well worth the 200 dollars and even more. I feel sorry for someone who doesn't understand that.

I paid somewhere in the region of $850* for Pilau when he was a puppy. He's worth every penny of that. he's certainly worth the money on vet bills.

Once I have brought a dog into my home he becomes a member of my family. It ceases to be a financial equation. If he needs treatment at the vets then he needs it: what it costs is not important beyond the question of whether or not I can afford it.



* this is a guess: I don't know what exhange rates were 11 years ago. He cost us £425.

Both my cats were shelter rescues -- I 'donated' around $75 per cat to the shelter. So theoretically, I should never spend anything on them. Too bad my township mandates rabies and distemper vaccinations -- I guess I'll get them put down. :right:

Pie - all my pets are rescue in one way or another. I got carly at a no-kill shelter and they asked for 60.00 (9 years ago) for the spay, shots, general vet bills, etc. and the money went to the shelter. almost all our shelters here charge for an animal adoption; the humane society does, too. I got my Jack Russell from a horse farm (same one I got Spiderman from) as her owner dumped her there after five years. Spiderman was rescued from orphanhood.

I have to take exception to one thing Radar said...dogs should NOT sleep outside, except certain breeds.

They are social creatures and NEED to be with their people. Left outside for long periods, they tend to develop behavioral problems due to your suppression of a natural instinct.

Dogs sleep together in a pack for warmth and protection. I see nothing wrong with granting your pet a bed on the floor in a corner, out of the way. Or crating them. But don't push them away. You're setting yourself up for trouble of you try to suppress an instinct.

Brian

IT'S PEEEEEEEEEEEPLE!!!!!

I paid about $650 for Sparky. If I had a vet tell me it would cost $1,000 to keep this dog alive for maybe another year, I'd probably put him down. I know it sounds cold. And I know you think that way about electronics, but I sort of feel that way about most things. A car, a computer, a pet, etc. To me they are things that I own, and if the upkeep of the item exceeds the value of the item, it makes no sense to keep it.

As far as keeping a dog outside, I haven't always felt that way. I have had inside dogs before. Sparky was an inside dog, a small dog. A Jack Russel Terrier. I've had outside dogs and inside dogs, but lately with a 2 year old in the house, knowing a dog could snap at any moment if my daughter pulls a tail or something, I'd just keep them outside. You play with them, and visit them, and take them for walks, and stuff, but they live outside and sleep outside unless the weather is so bad they can't.

Also having an obsessive compulsive cleaner of a wife who freaks if there are pet hairs on you or a crumb on the floor makes it tough to have one inside too.

Put the wife down...I would! ;)

Seriously, one would think a Vietnamese wife would be happy to have dogs around. ;)

How can you put pets into the same category as computers and cars? Computers and cars don;t feel, can't be scared, or lonely, can't exhibit loyalty or affection.

yes, we 'own' pets...but they're not 'things' they're living creatures.

Pets are not humans. They are less than humans. They are indeed "things". They are things we can own. What feelings a pet exhibits doesn't make them less of an object that we can own.

My computer, car, or television give me as much pleasure as I get from a pet.

I would never pay $1,000 to keep a $700 pet alive. I wouldn't pay $1,000 to keep that pet alive even if I had millions in the bank. It just doesn't make sense to me.

If you feel differently, I can respect that. But if I feel differently, why can't you offer the same respect? I'm no less compassionate, caring, feeling, or human than you. I just have different priorities than you and human life trumps all to me.

*chuckles* I respect the idea that human life trumps all: but that's not what you just said. You said you wouldn't pay $1000 to keep a $700 pet alive. That's got bugger all to do with valuing humans more highly than animals. That's to do with valuing animals no more than circuitry.

The operative word is value. When we value something we place a value on it. When I invest in a pet, I assign a value to it just as my car or computer have a value assigned to them. In my case, the value I assign to the pet is the price I paid for it.

Perhaps in your case you assign more value based on emotions or feelings, but I do not.

To me, when I invest in something and the upkeep of that investment exceeds the cost of the actual investment, I don't keep it. This holds true regardless of whether it's a pet, a car, a computer, or a television.

Oh, I understand that radar. I just don't see how that equates to 'human life trumps all in my book.' Human life trumps all in my book also, but that doesn;t mean i won't move heaven and earth to keep my pet healthy and happy.

I cuold see how those two things are related if you were intending to spend the money on helping starving children; in that case it's a choice: do you spend money on humans or on animals. But that's not the issue is it?

How you relate to animals is how you relate to animals. But by somehow equating that with the value you assign to human life you are falsely ennobling your perspective. One can value human life and also value animal life. The two are not necessarily in competition with each other.

I don't really see the purchase of a pet as an 'investment' in the same way as the purchase of a car or computer is an investment. Computers and cars are not alive. My dog very much is alive. A computer does not rely on me for its survival; it is an inanimate object, without emotions or the capacity for pain, distress, or joy.

I can understand someone having a more pragmatic view of animals. Hell, i eat meat and am not camping down at the local abbattoir with protest signs. Nor am I attempting to release caged monkeys from the nearest research lab...

But the idea that a dog exists at the same logical level as a car, or television, or computer for you is disturbing (to me). I am not suggesting they should exist at the same logical level as people...but the world is not made up solely of 'things' and 'people'. There are levels in between.

If human life trumps all, Radar, what are you doing owning a computer, or a car, or a television in the first place? You chose to spend that money on these objects, rather than a starving child?

A computer helps me with my work and keeps my mind active and entertained and also helps me organize things and pay bills. A car gets both my wife and I to and from work and our daughter to and from the babysitter so we can earn money. A television keeps us entertained while not at work. I don't have a dog, but I do help needy people.

I'm having a similar issue with my cat. I've discussed her here before, this is my mom's cat, who is 19, and pretty much a scroungy mess. She's still affectionate and loves to eat, but she pisses all over the house. Has gone from peeing on the floor of the bathroom to the dining room and now that we've put hardwood in the dining room that's not fun anymore, so she is peeing in my son's room and now goes all the way down to the lower-level to pee there, too. And if we leave anything on the floor, like a towel or sweater, she will pee on it.

Vet says we can pay a few hundred bucks and treat whatever thyroid problem vet suspects, but who knows if that will stop her behavior? OTOH, I feel an obligation to this cat because she's my mom's, and we inherited all kinds of good stuff from mom when she died, seems cold to not take the bad with the good.

On the 3rd hand (ha) that was 2 years ago and I think by living in a house that smells like cat piss for two years we have fulfilled our obligation.

Kitty is quarantined in the bathroom now and may be paying a very special visit to the vet in the next couple days. :(

19 is very old for a cat. Several hundred dollars is a lot to spend for something that 'might' help. If she's having to be quarantined in the bathroom, then her quality of life is starting to suffer.

Tough decision Juni, but it strikes me you mayhave done your best by her and a quiet drift into sleep may not be the worst path for her to take at this point.

Juniper, we had a similar problem with a cat. We solved it by confining the cat to a large dog crate with her litter box (which she would use, she just couldn't remember where it was). We moved the crate from place to place to keep the cat entertained and in the sun (when appropriate). Cost of crate: less than $100.

A good thing, too. I hope for any dog's sake you NEVER own a dog. :headshake

I've had many dogs and they loved me and I loved them. I treated them well, and they were lucky to have an owner as kind as I am.

. . . till they took ill or needed care.

I got 'em shots, flea & tick stuff, a tennis ball, etc. and when they got old and sick, I didn't make them suffer, except for Bernard. I kept him around until he was 16 years old. I had him from 12 to 28 years old. That's pretty damned old for any dog.

Nonsense, did you keep mom's half full trash can? There's not a reason in the world for putting up with a house that's drenched in cat piss... not one. If you want to, and can afford, to take a chance on treatment by all means go for it. But if you can't fix the cat's behavior, do her a favor... put her down.

Would Mom have thought poor kitty was unhappy by now? Would Mom herself have made the decision to put the cat out of her misery? Would you have counseled Mom to make that choice, if kitty were still in her house?

You certainly have no obligation to go way further than Mom would have gone.


Unless Mom was Radar.

Unless you are keeping kitty to somehow remain closer to your mom. Thats a whole different situation. Still the overriding issue at this point is the condition of the cat. Is she is pain, is her condition ever going to improve, is it treatable? IF not, then the answer seems clear.