Who knows? It always goes back to the Tea Party faction. Why did all those people in Jonestown drink the kool-aide? Ask Grover Norquist. :right:

@Glatt - Thank you for your clearly worded explanation!

@HM - My speakers have wonked out on me, so I can't listen to the video. Your Dad looks pretty cool though. Your folks aren't divorced by any chance? :blush:

I found a site with maps that reflect who would be hurt if various deductions would be eliminated.

Here's a map of mortgage interest rate deductions. It shows the percentage of tax returns that used this deduction in each state. It seems to correspond pretty closely to states that went to Obama. There are obviously some exceptions like Utah, but the South matches the election map pretty well.
Attachment 41923

Here's total itemized deductions by state.

Fascinating. No wonder the Republicans are pushing this.

Attachment 41925

And of course, here is the 2012 electoral map to refresh your memory.
Attachment 41926

Thank you.

I'm ready to go off the cliff. I know that I'll pay more, but I think it's important to reduce the national debt. For the last 4 years, there has been action on only one side: cuts. Now it's time for shared pain. Defense, you cost too much. FICA should be paid on all income, including capital gains income. Over $3 million per year income should be taxes at 50%. SS and Medicare should not be available to those who have income of greater than $300k per year, or maybe to those whose net worth is greater than $1 million. Retirement should be raised to 70 (it's the new 50!). Increase tariffs, penalize non-US owners/companies. I could go on ...

Sorry, happily married.

I heard another reason in favor of "stepping gently off the fiscal curb" or whatever it's being called these days.

President Obama has the highest trump hand here, and everybody knows it. No tax rate increases on filers > $250, no signature. All he has to do is wait, right? He *could* wait for a bill from the House that includes such republican blasphemy. He'd be waiting a long time though. By waiting until the new year, the republicans get to save face by saying they nevereverevernever voted for a tax increase. They get to save face. I think this has a lot of substance because there's not a lot of substance to the arithmetic found in their counteroffers.

President Obama's doing them a favor. They know that the higher marginal tax rates will be accepted by "the rich". They know it won't be the end of the world as they imagine it and talk about it. This way, they get to continue to appear stalwart, while permitting something good for the country to occur.

best bad news I've heard all day. :)

There is talk of taxing employer paid insurance plans as income. That'd be pretty brutal for the middle class, I'd think. Seems like a step toward National Health Care but taking the most painful route possible to get there.

Drat! Why does it always seem like the good ones are already taken?

hmmm... Let's see - Washington or Washington? :D

That idea has been out on the table for a few years now. The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities called the employer tax exclusion “The largest single subsidy in the tax code” in a paper they put out in 2009.

I don't get it. Everyone keeps talking about a fiscal cliff. Obvously the entire problem is mental.

An overhyped alarmist soundbite is pretty much par for the course, these days.

This is where left and right use different language and think about things very differently. To those of us on the right a subsidy is when you get something not when the Feds fail to take something.

But they will lose the entire middle class vote. The Democrats want to protect the middle class from a tax increase. When the republicans allow middle income taxes to increase, the middle class WILL hold it against them.

The electorate has short memories. If this gets resolved in January, then by November election time, nobody will remember much at all. And if the elections are a year or two from now, it won't matter at all.

Agreed.
Just look how we've completely forgotten Wecanseerussia ??? and Anyonebut ??? (whatever their names)

Anyonebut Thethismostfukedup.

But that's MISTER Anyonebut Thethismostfukedup to you.

:D

Thx to M. Doubleentendre

PS: that Knock knock Sundae was the best pun of the month

Thanks, buddy. :)

The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities is non-partisen. The link I gave above gives a pretty exhaustive analysis of the effect of the tax break on health insurance thing. (does calling it a "tax break" make you feel more comfortable?) If this is a subject that deeply concerns you, it's worth the read. They discuss a number of possible scenarios. For example:

Coming from the Right, how do you feel about the proposal above?

It makes more sense as a progressive proposal.

Here is a side-by-side view of Bowles-Simpon's, Obama's, and Republican's plan.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...charts/265901/

Note: I would just post the image but I would have to reduce the size and I don't feel like doing that now...

FIFY


:D

this is done.

Attachment 41971

In other words, you consider it more about some progressive agenda rather than a legitmate proposal to extend health care coverage to lower income Americans while keeping down costs?
If the latter, what would constitute a more reasonable compromise?

Just curious.

No, I think if they do tax the value of an employer health plan it must be a progressive tax because a lot of folks work shit jobs just for the coverage.

Thank you for clearing that up for me. And I have to agree.

"The truth is that everybody has to pay more taxes, not just the rich."
Howard Dean

"Beating up on "the rich" is a politically-convenient ploy for the moment, but the math doesn't lie:
Taxing only the upper echelons of income earners and small businesses would reap an insufficient pittance in the final analysis.
The government's unsustainable spending will soon require many more people to pay their "fair share" to the federal government.
Some voters who are currently on board with the Left's soak-the-rich crusade will one day (perhaps soon) discover that they themselves are the new "rich," with of their livelihood and income suddenly in Big Government's crosshairs. Dean is at least doing everyone a favor by serving notice early. He is very enthusiastic about middle class tax increases and deep defense cuts, but very protective of all other spending."

Yep. I actually agree. We need to rethink how we constitute "rich" in America. +250,000 is far too high a top bracket, we need to spend HALF of what we are on defense, and we need to spend MORE on infrastructure and social safety nets.
I don't think that's a controversial opinion at all on the left.

I agree with Senator Dean.

But thank dog, someone on the board besides Adak has at last come to defense of the poor, down trodden upper 2% in wealth. You go, Classic!

If the math doesn't lie, then give us the god damn numbers, and at the very least, use ones put out by the CBO - not ones drawn out of the thin air by some outfit like the Heriage Foundation. Give us ANYTHING besides an uncollaborated statement.

The average median household income was around $51000 in 2011, a mere $200,000 below the income level targeted for a return to the Clinton era rates. Today Donald Trump and tomorrow Ibby. :eek:

Please define what you would consider a "fair share" of taxes, too. What? 5% for Trump and 0% for everyone else, or better yet, 0% on Trump and 5% on single Moms earning less than $10,000/year? Whatever because the US doesn't really need a government, anyway, since Goldman Sachs is already doing the job?

Also, since you seem comfortable using Tea Party terminology, could you please define what you mean by "small businesses" - especially the SMALL part? Seriously, I really want know.

Another question I have is why are you upset by the thought of cuts to defense spending? The war in Afghanistan is winding down. Mission accomplished in Iraq. (ahem) Maybe you'd like the US to declare war on the remaining two members of the "axis of evil": Iraq and North Korea? Why not declare war on Canada as well? We could get all that oil, and I bet the Canadian army would be a push over.

What are you a defense contractor or something?

Now, since we are at war on the Canadian and Iranian and N. Korean fronts and Goldman Sachs has decided to outsource the Army to Rwanda, what do you suggest happen to the earned benefits that the American people paid all those taxes for out of their hard earned paychecks? That amount comes to quite a bit and every last one of us who worked for even a day or two paid into those funds.

Oh, I forgot. Those are now called "entitlements" and that money was given to Donald Trump, so he wouldn't have to pay an extra .001% toward the cost of our Rwandan mercenaries.

Good thing we no longer have to worry about the government throwing money at such fripperies as education, infrastructure, and disaster relief for worthless states on the stupid East Coast like New Jersey.

And it's a relief to be rid of all those old people and the disabled ones, too - bunch of worthless parasites. Glad we took away their housing and medicaid and put 'em out on the street to die.

We'll show YOU, Howard Dean!

Small business?
Hows this, firms that have fewer than 50 employees. 96% of all firms in the United States or 5.8 million out of 6 million total firms. These 5.8 million firms employ nearly 34 million workers.

Ok, but I still need a more precise definition. I'm wondering about profit margins. Could you give me the link where you found this information?

Like, I can understand that a firm with 50 or so employees might rake in a profit of a million dollars or more. Financially speaking, how much in profits defines a small business as opposed to a large one?

And what's the percentage of small businesses that have 10 employees or less? The percentage of the ones run by a sole proprieter? Do small businesses on this end of the spectrum typically show a profit of a million dollars or more?

The Republicans seem to want us to believe that Joe of Joe's plumbing is going to be taxed at the same rate as Donald Trump. Not so.

For example, I read that the typical Mom and Pop eatery brings in an average income of $36,000/year. Was that a lie? If so, what is the real average? If a business earns enough money to fall under the Dem's proposed repeal of Bush era tax cuts, how can it be defined as "small"?

This is what's making me dig in my heels:

However, this comes from a populist site, and if I'm going to request that people use non partisen sources, then I have to do the same. I've read similiar things from other sources, but are these statements lies? There must be somewhere that gives the sums involved where the Dems want to repeal the Bush era tax cuts on businesses worth X amount. There must be somewhere that gives the Republican monetary definition of a "small business," but I can't find that either.

I'm so sick of smoke and mirrors.

A hedge fund manager and their secretary are a "small business" if measured by employee count. It makes more sense to measure a small business by its revenue, rather than its employee count, especially when discussing the effect of income tax rates on them.

And if a business not only makes $250,000 in taxable income, but makes enough over $250,000 that a few percent increased rate on that money is a significant amount, that is no small business.

I found that in a pdf on a government site a few days ago. I can't give you a link, as I only could quote it because I put in in an email I sent at the time.

Another thing I found there;

Sam - You are arguing with Howard Dean, NOT ME!
He said all those things. you may now take your shitting fucking attack attitude and stick up your ass. I neither attacked nor defended anyone. Typical bullshit not worthy of a response.

Accusing us of wanting the tax cuts for the rich to be rescinded to fix the budget problems is wrong. It's because the rich are paying a lower rate than the rest of us which isn't fair. We're well aware that isn't the final solution to our fiscal bloat.

Try reading your PM's.

If you did already check them and then went ahead and posted the above anyway, oh well. At least you'll be pleased to know that I'm leaving the Cellar for an indefinate period of time.

Sam, Got it and responded.

Somehow this sounds familiar...

Boehner offers millionaire tax hike, Fox News confirms
Oh yeah, now I remember

AP is reporting that the house of Representatives will miss the deadline to vote on any deal with respect to the fiscal cliff.

*checks watch*
well, yeah...

They suck. Seriously. The fuckers.

There is only one immediate downside to going off the cliff: unemployment insurance checks may stop going out between now and a deal. Every other change can be retroactively fixed.

Now, the Democrats have even more leverage. Polls show that the nation blames the republicans for obstructing, not the democrats. We'll see a deal in the next five days, i promise you - and it'll be a deal that, while not ideal, will reflect an actual compromise, not the stupid move-the-goalposts-further-and-further-right compromise we've seen so much of lately.

I am happy to quote go over the cliff quote. Too many reasons to list via phone but it will all be alright.

NBC is reporting right this minute that Biden is ON capitol hill, and a deal has been reached in the senate. They might get this shit done tomorrow.

Most forget that the fiscal cliff and a resulting resolution were defined long ago by a different name:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=U-A9c6VNeRQ

The real deadline is the 3rd, because the new Congress takes over on the 4th, which erases any bills in progress.

Of course, the new Senate would probably be able to get it to this point again rather quickly, leaving it with the House again.

Live (MST) from Island in the Sky, the Lost Corners, USA:

All lemmings - please move to the back of the bus!



5...4...3...2...1...




And we're off!


















sent by Coyote Song, courtesy Canyonlands NP pack (union no.666)

Man, when TW censors himself you know things have gotten out of hand.

You know it's bad for Boehner when George Hamilton asks for his autographed bottle of Hawaiian Tropic back.

Capital Hill. Slowly they turned. Step by step. Inch by inch. They smashed them. They hit them. They lied about them in TV ads. Rivers of blood. Pools of blood. The blood!

Its been a long time since they called one another pal.

Meanwhile, who is the victim here. Not all are bald. And yet we all are only Curly.

Fiscal Cliff. Slowly we turned. Accusation by accusation. Job loss after job loss. Until suddenly 89 out of 97 found they really could agree.

Now let's go have an Alice in Wonderland tea party. Good reason why they call that the Lower House.

Smile when you say "tea party," Mister.

Who cares what the Senate does when the House might as well be filled with Cheshire Cats for all the good they NEVER do?

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

It's a beautiful day down here at the bottom of the canyon. The Colorado River is sparkling in the winter sun and there's a couple of bighorn sheep grazing near the talus slope across the river from me. There's cliffs everywhere around here. I'm just relaxing and taking in the views. CNN and everyone else should do the same instead of attempting to herd all those cats back in DC.

Sent courtesy of the Colorado Division of Wildlife via the radio collar on a mountain lion who just landed next to me on all 4 feet. Nice kitty...

When they say go jump off a cliff, then you will find how fiscal it can be. The day is not so beautiful when you get to the bottom.

And so the Chesire Cat (Rush Limbaugh) will laugh. He called for America to fail. And gets what he wanted because we listen to his rhetoric - and jumped off that cliff.

Fiscal Falls. Slowly we turned ...

Alice, Curly ... does not matter. We are all victims when some pal (a business school graduate) said he would fix the economy by cutting taxes for the rich. Even went to Pittsburg, Miami, Dallas and New Orleans to promoted it. Economics then took revenge - as even Curly learned.

Clearly we all need even bigger guns to solve this. Do they make depleted uranium bullets? Go nuclear for a sparkling future.

BTW, not all cats like to be petted as you might already know.

Geez, lighten up, tw! This is Sam, the one who started this stupid thread. I've e-mailed my so-called Representatives, written letters to the editor of several newspapers, voted for Obama, canvassed for the Dems prior to the election, etc., etc., etc.

You may think the situation is bad, but I'm out here in the trenches and I KNOW the situation is bad. However, RFN, the House is composed of the same ignorant, far right ideologues who are in it for some devious end of their own and Country be damned. These reptiles lack the ability to act for any reason other than a few neural sparks from their stem brains. That's not going to change today or tomorrow or next week. MAYBE when the new Congress goes into session, the House might agree to something or other.

Meanwhile, I'm just laying back and enjoying the show, because that's the only option any of us regular people in the US now have. I choose my battles and the current DC sideshow ain't one of them.

One of the nice things about being out here in Canyonlands is that the Rush Limbaugh reception is nothing but a bunch of static. Fitting, yes? So, chill out and take a couple of extra days holiday vacation, and I'll show you around. This is a spectacular place and helps put everything in its proper perspective.

PS Thank you for your concern re the mountain lion. Turns out it was just a clever ad for some smart phone outfit and created by a desperate Sri Lankan working in an outsourced anime' factory. Meow?

PSS One of the members of the Sri Lankan camera crew just told me that a Reptilican Represetative went on CNN and accused the Senate of being drunk on New Year's cheer when they passed the 2am measures this morning. The Reptilican went on to complain that Obama wanted to squander billions on stupid stuff like extending unemployment benefits and Hurricane Sandy relief. Yeah! Those stupid people who don't have jobs by now should should just go hang out in the park until a "job creator" comes along and graciously offers them a minimum wage job at Walmart. Plus, I never cared much for the East Coast myself. SCREW New Jersey! SCREW New York! If people are deluded enough to live in those places they deserve MORE hurricanes, not hurricane relief. :p:

sent via meadow lark song

BREAKING NEWS: GOP No. 2 Cantor doesn't back Senate fiscal deal, House Republicans say

Hm. this might not get sorted out today after all. All the whips must be just completely worn out from all the politician-wrangling. 's like herding cats.

This situation is created by wacko tea party types (who even tried to elect a witch to the Senate from Delaware). Anybody need an archetype for this entire situation? His name is Eric Cantor. With blind followers who signed Norquist's pledge.

Senate voted 89 to 8 to solve the problem. Intelligence prevailed. But wacko extremists in the House (same people who have backstabbed Speaker Boehner) are doing exactly what Limbaugh ordered. "We want America to fail."

Only lanquid humor can comprehend their stupidity.

Who are these idiots who subverted McCain's and Romney's campaigns. And even worshipped Sarah Palen? Eric Cantor is only the prototype of the new Republican party typified by Ann Coulter.

Even Three Stoogers never performed so much violence.

it's over now. at least, for two more months.
I'm not overjoyed at the deal, but it's something at least.

That gang of drama queens who are attempting to pass as members of a responsible legislature doesn't fool me. You can't outfox a fox and I'm staying right where I am. Going off that damned cliff once was enough trouble without having to come back out here again for Valentine's Day and having to do it all over again. You have no idea how hard it was to coax Wyn to jump off after me, him with his short little legs. And never mind the damn mountain lion scare.

Nothing has been done about the sequester other than to extend unemployment benefits and nothing has been done about the debt ceiling - just more histrionics and shoving the problem a couple of months down the road. Watching Grover Norquist posturing on CNN is worse than watching old made for TV Santa Claus movies. Yeah, Scrooge is real and Santa isn't. We know that already.

I just got a cool assignment monitoring the Colorado State Legislature for its own outrageous behavior. And I can even do this from the comfort of my new home on the banks of the Colorado River. Colorado apparently has its own version of C-Span which I can connect with via my laptop. The laptop can be recharged via my truck battery or an outlet at the Visitor's Center located just a few miles upstream from here.

I'll be doing volunteer work for the Colorado Cross Disability Coalition which does outstanding stuff on behalf of Colorado's disabled folks. Hah! The Colorado Legislature won't know what hit them. That's what happens when a gal is pushed over the edge. ;)






Sent by a note in a bottle

When you factor in the expiration of the payroll tax holiday and the increase from 4.3% back to 6.2% we're pretty much all going to take a hit.

Here's a chart. Not a very good one, because those bars at the top are broken, but it still gives some information. And if you have been listening to the politicians say that only those with income over $450K will be hit, you may be a little surprised by it.

Attachment 42320

This "deal" is a piece of shit. If you haven't figured that out yet, then you either don't care or are too partisan to understand. glatt has posted a part of it, but that is not the whole story.