Nood, I think your belief system is full of shit. But I'm telling you this because I *care*.

Ain't I so damn thoughtful??

You are welcome!!!

Not really. If you were actually warning me, sure. But the only thing you're warning me about is looking stupid in front of people who don't share my beliefs. In their eyes, I crossed that line long ago anyway. Oh, look, a bible verse: Going in, I knew that the majority of people would think I was full of shit. If I didn't believe something strongly, would I deliberately open myself to ridicule? It'd be way easier to jump on the anti-christian bandwagon. I had 30 years of practice, I'm as good at it as you are.

Why is faith a "fall-back"? It's not a step below intellectual thought, nor is it exclusive of it. They compliment each other. Try looking at the whole concept with an open mind instead of coloring your investigation with childhood disappointments and anger at "the church".
Incidentally, the Vatican has done more damage to the message of Christ than any other single entity in the history of the world, IMO.
I guess the reason we can't meet in the middle on this, LJ, is that there is no middle to it. All belief systems are not equal. If I feel something is wrong, I can't say it's right. That being said, I don't think you are less of a person for believing what you believe. I think you are probably more intelligent than I am (no sarcasm). Your argument makes more sense than mine does, from a humanist's standpoint. But that's just it, I'm not a humanist. I'm a Christian. Humanists can't ever see worship as more than a quaint hobby (you can do whatever, just don't scare the horses), and believers can't ever see it as less than the meaning of life. Just the way it is, I guess.

That's cold man.

I don't care about you looking silly, I care about you wasting your life.

i never asked you to believe that what i think is right. i just ask that you believe that it is POSSIBLE. That's how i feel about christianity. it's possible. no more. no less.


faith and logic are not mutually exclusive, you're right.

However, to say something is true because you believe it is elementally wrong. you can believe something because it is true, but not the other way 'round. no one can really say for sure what is and is not true of the after life. can you?

Faith and logic are not mutually exclusive, but faith and proof are. If something has been proved, we no longer need to have faith in it. Faith is the existence of belief despite the abscence of proof.

I have a few devout Christian friends. We even sometimes discuss religion. However, most of the time we keep our faiths to ourselves.

Having someone constantly tell you how happy they are with their religion is like having someone constantly tell you how happy they are with their car/clothes/hair/house/job etc. - annoying.

It gets even more annoying when they tell you that you should get the same religion car/clothes/hair/house/job etc.

I gets really, really, annoying when they torture you until you promise to get the same religion car/clothes/hair/house/job etc.

It was very sad that Jesus died. It was even sadder that his followers were persecuted. It was very sad when said followers got into power and hunted down the decendants of Jesus in the name of Jesus.

It was even sadder when the followers of Christians fought Christians for hundreds of years and laid waste to vast stretches of Europe.

Almost every organized religion existing in the world is a 'survivor'. In general, this means that in order to survive they may have done things that do not quite fit with a perfect view of the world. (Pope Innocent IV's authorization of torture for the 1st Inquisition comes to mind).

So it should be understandable that people are leery of religion and of the religious. Because while it is wonderful that individuals are looking inward, finding God, and changing themselves, the trouble starts when they look outward, see everyone else and say "But enough about me, let's see how I can make you better".

That’s why many people differentiate between being religious and having faith. I work with a lot of double belly buttons (reborns), that act like they just discovered the vending machine was giving double your money back. They are so thrilled that they want to share the wealth and insist you do it too. They don’t want to control you, they just want you to share their euphoria. Annoying? Yes, but not in a malicious way, more like a kid that just learned the word “why”.
No, if you never heard of him you’re cool. You’ll be given a chance to get on board at Armageddon. If you’ve heard of and rejected him, then you’re fucked.
:)

why is it so important to jesus that we believe in him before we die. I'm not ruling out the possibility that the bible is true, and it's thumpers are correct. unlikely, i think, but anything is possible. If, when I die, it turns out that it IS true, and i've lived my life as a good person, and have a clear conscience, why can;t I accept Jesus when I meet him, and he tells me that "yes" he's the son of GOD, and "yes, there IS a god...that's him over there....."...??? what is it about the faith, and worship that qualifies you as eligible for eternal bliss?


how can a god sentence you to the proper place for eternity based on 50-70 years of life on earth?

I abide by this principle at most times (except forum threads on religion).Everyone has heard of John 3:16, but the verses following it are equally important. They are Jesus' words to Nicodemus (a member of the Jewish ruling council - a 'religious' man in every sense of the word*). Bear with me, it all applies:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.
Reader's Digest version: we are separated from God because of sin. In our imperfection, we are unable to bridge the gap through any good thing we do. So, God sent a sinless replacement to pay the penalty for our wrongdoing, thus bridging the gap. The only thing we have to do to is believe that it's true. The preceding example is only one of many. You actually have to read the bible to "get" it - any quote I provide needs the context of the whole work to make complete sense. I'll put my money where my mouth is. I'll mail a bible, free of charge, to anyone who asks for one. Just pm me. I don't have any money right now, but I'll dig one up for anyone who will read it willingly, and with an open mind. If you think I'm some kind of TV preacher selling snake oil, you're wrong. Look at any of my other posts on any subject - I've been honest about my views, whether they align with Christianity or not. Am I a hypocrite? Yep. And a liar, and greedy, and lustful. And everything else bad. But I have a goal I aspire to, no matter how badly I miss it.

You can't have it both ways. If I spend my life rejecting God because I think Christianity takes away my freedom of choice, I can't complain to him at the end of my life because his word turned out to be true and I didn't believe it. You want choice or not?

so WHY is it so important for christians to believe? you showed me where is says it. I already knew it to be true. I said WHY?
In your own words.


And I wasn't saying I reject God. In my question, I have led a good life. One that otherwise aligns with the christian ( and most other religions, btw) tenents. I simply reserve judgement on what will come after this life until I get there. Why must I be damned to an eternity of hell for being rational?

I have to tell you that I've asked this questions of christians before and the answer is always " that's just how it is" If what I have described IS true, and the christian God WOULD damn me just for not believing in Jesus based on what is written in a bible that I don't trust to be the original message, then ......

I guess I expect GOD to be nicer.

There is a much better explanation for why belief via faith is a required component of this religion: because it would be the one thing that would really cause the religion to last over time.

Just look at which ideas disappear quickly and which continue to travel around.

There are many competing ideas about how the universe was created, because Man cannot STAND to "not know". The unanswerable questions are terrible for us human begins. Our curiosity is innate. So there have always been fairy tales and stories about how it all came to be. And some of the stories had to last.

An idea, a notion, whether it's true or false, requires things in order to remain in our collective consciousness over time. For example, it has to be utterly important. It has to have personal consequences for the [non-]believer. Christianity achieves this by making it the most critical decision you can possibly make: not only does it affect your life, but your afterlife as well. You can watch people on the Cellar offering up those odds plainly: the price of not believing might be very grave indeed. If I care about you I pass along this information. Thus the information is passed along, without regard for its truth. In the face of all kinds of opposing evidence, such as the fossil record and our discoveries about space, the only way for the idea to survive is to discuss it outside the realm of logic and facts. And voila, so it is.

A notion requires a complete narrative and drama. This kind of drama is why urban legends are passed along: they are compelling as stories. Without the right kind of drama, they are not passed along and don't survive. And voila, so there is narrative, drama, and characters in the religions that have lasted. The characters are humanized as much as possible even when their form is unknowable. This is necessary in order for the ideas to last.

The ideas also have to subtlely change over time in order to last, so a certain degree of flexibility is required. The way we think Christianity works today is entirely and totally different form how we thought it worked 1000 years ago. Can this possibly be true? No, but if it still worked how it worked then, it would not last. Voila biblical interpretation: the orders of religion change along with the society. When the people demand change, someone will bang up a new list of rules on a door and the rules people prefer will be the ones that last.

In fact there have been competing religions all along and by this point, only the ones that have these kinds of attributes have survived. That in turn tells you an awful lot about the religions.

True enough, UT. You and I can see the real reason that faith is a requirement.

If you don't do what we tell you to, not only will you suffer in this life, but for all of eternity.

I was interested in hearing the answer from a believer. What explanation have they been given, that they found to be acceptable enough to be the cornerstone of their religion?

The Bible says so?

Religion and faith at their best are the fires that drive people like Mother Teresa, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr, and Saint Francis.

From a Catholic perspective, a follower of Jesus is not supposed to just lead a good life, they are supposed to lead a saintly life as exemplified by someone like Mother Teresa. She may not be officially a saint, but I use her as an example because she is well known and her life speaks for itself. She is an example of the kind of demands Jesus in the Bible asks of those who would follow him. Most Christians fall a bit short, no? Faith is a way of drawing strength from God when human strength would fail.

Lumberjim asks why are we supposed to have faith. Faith is supposed to make us more than what we are without it. That is why it is so badly needed.

so it's motivation. But, if something is right, it's right....right? Belief in GOD makes you want to strive toward being as godlike as you can. I'm all for that. Faith because you HAVE to or you'll burn in hell doesn;t work for me.

Spiritual people are spiritual people. the details are irrelevant, and often harmful.

I say it is enough to live your life as a good person. when i'm elected god, i'll make sure everyone knows that. :)

Ghandi was however lacking the right *kind* of faith and therefore, according to your belief system, is currently roasting.

Belief via faith is the central point of almost any religion. And there are many religions that have lasted for centuries and thrive to this day. However, Christianity has two vital differences with them - it's central figure claimed to be God, and claims resurrection from the dead.

1) He asked his followers to drop everything and follow him. He said that there was no way to come to the Father except through him. He said that "Before Abraham was, I AM". If he wasn't deliberately misleading people, was he delusional? A good man who maybe took himself too seriously? Nope. He suffered the worst death the time had to offer. If he knew he was lying, he would have broken under the strain. No one will die the most horrible of deaths for something they know is a lie. Delusional? It would be a very deep delusion that would carry him through the passion without giving in and crying mercy. Instead, he forgave those who were pinning him to the cross (through the wrists, Mel). By the same token, he took no credit for himself - "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing."

2) Muhammed's tomb has an occupant. The Buddha's tomb has an occupant. Jesus' tomb is empty. This is important. Of course, the remaining 11 disciples could have stolen the body out from under the nose of the Roman guard, but they were the same guys who ran when he was arrested and denied him when they were interrogated by the crowds. Still, it's a possiblity. Barring that, however, you have to give credence to his claim that he is alive. Thomas didn't buy it until he put his hands on the wounds themselves. It would take up all Jesus' time just to stand on earth and let ppl come by and stick their fingers in the nail holes, so we have to have faith.

Regardless of what else is out there religion-wise (and as I've said, I've been open-minded in my search), I refuse to be one of the crowd at the foot of the cross yelling, "If you're God, come down off your cross." I know a king when I see one.

You are right on track all the way to the last sentence....faith because you have to isn't faith. Can you really think of someone having faith based on fear? When has that ever worked? If someone just wants a "get out of hell free" ticket, their faith always wavers (and might have never been there). True faith frees you from the slavery of sin, which in turn makes you acceptable to God. The devil's afraid of hell, but he's going anyway.

Tangent: The devil can quote more scripture than you or me, also. The real danger is for people who are "religious" without being saved. That's the primary message of many books of the bible - hypocrites are going to pay. That alone should endear one to it.

Forgot to answer LJ's point: It's different from believer to believer. For me, it was the logic that finally pushed me over the edge, so to speak. Nobody elses' god changes lives so profoundly and completely.

Look at it historically. It ties back to the "was Jesus telling the truth about himself" question. The 12 apostles of Christ were not completely on board with Jesus throughout his ministry. They constantly questioned him, and none of them actually believed that he would physically raise from the dead. They were Jews - they were waiting for a messiah that would free Israel from the Romans. They fought among themselves to be Jesus' closest "advisor" so they would be in a better position when he set up his kingdom in Jerusalem and overthrew Herod (considered to be a puppet of Rome by his followers). When Jesus was arrested, they scattered. ) One of them stayed long enough to take a swipe at a guard (remember, they thought of Jesus as the future king and themselves as his "posse"), but they were gone soon after. They stayed in hiding until the crucifixion was over - none were present at the execution (I don't think so, anyway...fuzzy on this point). At the time of the resurrection, they were still in hiding, trying to figure out an escape plan. When Mary (not mom) ran in saying the tomb was empty, a couple of them went with her to check it out. When they saw that it WAS empty, they were at a loss.

Even then, not all of them believed, e.g. Thomas. Yet by the end of their lives, every last one of them was murdered for preaching the gospel. They were stoned, crucified, crucified upside down, beheaded....I think there was one that simply died in prison, but I don't have a bible in front of me at the moment. The point is, that's a big change. The disciples didn't believe because of faith, they believed because they SAW what happened, and were willing to devote the rest of their lives preaching it. But, as Jesus said, "You believe because you have seen. Blessed are they who don't see, and still believe" (paraphrased).

That's the cornerstone of my faith, personally. Again, another believer might have a different answer.

I'm one of them. I didn't know there was an organized cell of them...it's just something I got from reading the beeblay.

thank you. was that so hard?

something doesn;t jive here. you won;t gamble because you're afraid of losing the bet, right? you imply that you believe in god just in case it turns out to be true. Enough to use it as an argument, at least.

but is it faith in spite of the fact that you MUST have it? If you have to have faith, and have to believe to get in, how do you know you haven;t just done a good job of tricking yourself into believing that you truly believe. How many "christians" are just going through the motions "just in case?" they go to church, they follow the rules, but maybe they doubt it a little.....maybe they think ther might be some truth to another religion, too. Is it enough to SAY you believe?

I feel as strongly as any bible thumper does about my beliefs, yet, as I said, there is a small kernel of doubt. always. maybe the millions of christians are right, and this sucks, but this is how it is, and i'm going to burn in hell. therefoer, my "faith" in what I believe is not absolute. does a christian's faith have to be absolute? what if you're having a "bad faith day" when you happen to die?

I hope this illustrates to you the ridiculous nature of these little rules most conventional religions employ. Live as a good christian, in as much as it makes you stronger and wiser, but dont tell me im gonna burn cuz i dont like your flavor of ice cream.

i will not accept that a truly good person who does not happen to accept jesus h christ as his savior will fry for eternity. that's ludicrous. can you honestly say you DO believe that? really???

This thread reminded me of a discussion I had with a good friend - some old-timers here may remember him, AlphaGeek? - on this subject. The following was developed after a freeform thought session at about four, five in the morning a month back. Here goes:

(PS: If something like this was touched on already, my apologies. I gotta run soon, so poring over six pages of philosophy is not in the cards.)

----------

Steve (4:09:56 AM): if you believe in heaven, it is total satisfaction, which is the lack of desire and feeling....if you don't believe in heaven, then when you die, you simply cease to exist

Before I begin, I'd like to point out that it's remarkable how many times I've been metaphysically hit upside the head in the immediately pre-dawn hours. Continuing.

I've been mulling over that statement you made there, and it struck me. Throughout upbringing, we are inculcated with the belief (the Heaven belief, precisely) that when we die, we go to a paradise world, where our every need and want is catered to. However, in this scenario, we are still ourselves. We, to our core, are no different for all eternity. But how can that be? We, as humans, are defined by needs and wants; by pressures and standards and on and on and on. To quote Biff from Lamb (I swear, that book is so underappreciated. There really should be a monument built to it.): "Without the past, where's the guilt? And without the future, where's the dread? And without guilt and dread, who am I?"

Perhaps that's what Hell truly is: being as you are, being human, for eternity. The knowledge that stars will burn out, alien civilizations and species will be born, rise, fall, and wither away, and whole galaxies will spin into oblivion before you even have a hope of being satisfied. I remember sitting in a guidance counselor's office after he finished reading a story about a particularly tragic teen suicide, and he asked me how - why - people like me could turn to such an end. I pointed to a poster behind him that read something to the effect that these years - high school - were the best we - students - would ever have and told him that that was the reason. Things like that. He didn't get it, so I elaborated: The oldest high school student, ideally, was eighteen years old. The average American lives to an age of mid-70s. I told him that what that poster was saying to us was that we can live the rest of our lives, an entire half-century, and it wasn't going to get any better than right now. The people, the food, the environment, the experiences, none of them were going to improve over fifty years. That that poster was telling us we can live out the rest of our years on this planet, and nothing we do, nowhere we go, will measure up to this time. I told him that what that poster was telling us was the rest of our lives are just not worth it. He understood, and that's just looking at the next fifty years. Imagine looking out onto infinity with that idea in your head. That sounds rather hellish to me.

If you no longer have to worry, then you are no longer really human. We've established this, I imagine. But if you reach that plane of existence, where you're not even human, then what are you? Do you remember what you once were? Do you even care? Presumably not, as such a care would be nullified in this state of existence. That rather unnerves me though, the thought of actually changing species. I mean, it's not quite like evolution. There, you're a member of the new batch right out the gate, the mutation doesn't happen while you're conscious of your prior state. Again, that I'm thinking this is proof positive I'm human, I suppose.

Steve, you drew the line at belief and not in heaven. That those that do experience satisfaction, the lack of desire and feeling. And those that don't, cease to be. I think my ultimate point here, if any is to be found, is thus: Are the two necessarily mutually exclusive?

The throwaway lines we use come back to bite us on the ass. No, I didn't become a Christian because of that - and I've made that clear throughout the discussion. You picked one phrase that helps your argument to the exclusion of the rest. It's a popular tack - just look at any debate involving the bible where someone picks out something from Leviticus like, "Thou shalt stone they who blahblahblah" and use it to discredit the entire argument for God.There are times when I don't have much faith - after all, it's a transitive sort of state. But when I accepted in my heart and with my mind that Jesus died for my sins and made the conscious determination to try to live like him because I believed his teaching, the books were balanced. Right then, at that moment. As for tricking myself into believing that I believe......have you actually read that statement? If I'm completely fooled into thinking that I believe - um, I've met the requirements for belief. It's the same thing.Too many people say the little prayer and start becoming all churchy without ever really giving their lives to Christ, and they are on very, very dangerous ground. It's not up to me to decide who is a Christian and who isn't, though. And it's not up to me to decide who goes where when they die. But Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father except through me." It's up to each person to decide whether that's true or not. Like I said before, I don't think Jesus was either a liar or insane.If you have accepted Christ, you are already saved. Because of his sacrifice, the penalty for your sin is paid. You lack the power to either save yourself or negate the gift you have accepted. You will go to heaven on a "bad faith day".Jesus said it is true. I believe it. Really. Because there is no such thing as a "truly good person". All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. It's the condition of sin that seperates us, not a tally sheet of individual offenses.

That's why I tell people about it. And as ludicrous as it sounds to human ears, it's something set down by the God of the universe. He is jealous, but merciful. So, no, you can't do whatever the hell you want and get away with it. But he gave you an out. Take it if you wish, but if you don't take it, don't blame him. You wanted choice, remember?

Incidentally, the little religious rules that individual denominations set forth are mostly hogwash, IMO. That has nothing to do with salvation though.

Originally posted by lumberjim I've always found my Christianity works better if I just apply it to myself. Even as a Christian, I bristle when other Christians attempt to determine my level of faith to size me up for conversion as the door-to-door faith peddlers do.

Sorry to interrupt your debate but that is a bit of an odd point about my fellow Christians that I keep wanting to sand down. Sometimes I think that prostletizers are more concerned with just getting a conversion than in truly instilling the person with Christian values - love your brother, etc. Some Christians act as though there's a cosmic scorecard or as though a conversion is like a closing sale and there's an eternal knife set waiting if you close enough.

I'll say this in conclusion as religious debates are not really my cup of tea. After reading this thread, it is as clear as mountain air how the history of the world is only slightly more than the history of unfilfilled religious ambitions. For me, religious ambitions should be aimed inward and not outward.

For Christians, I wonder sometimes if the focus on converting others is but a distraction from or a procrastination of the substantially more challenging task of making one's self more Christ-like.

You're right Beestie. I hope I"m not coming across as one of the people you describe, because it's the farthest thing from my mind. As far as I know, I've never been responsible for the 'conversion' of anyone. But in the context of a religious discussion, I won't shy away from blabbing my beliefs ad nauseum.edited to note: only 3 souls left before I get the toaster oven!!!

Originally posted by mrnoodle You don't impress me as that so I hope I didn't inadvertently imply that you did.

My point, really, is that I can't "argue" my faith with someone since its really no different of a choice than paper or plastic only less tangible. Although the importance of the choice is to me very significant, the basis for the choice is largely non-existent.

Toaster Oven! Dude, you must be saving oceans of souls! I'll be lucky to get one of those things that, when you drop it in water, turns into a dinosaur only you can't tell which one or that its even a dinosaur at all. :)

from a 1990 encyclical by John Paul II [Redemptoris Missio]

>>>

The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it moust be concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have the opportunity to come to know or accept the Gospel revelation or to enter the Church... For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accomodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.

>>>

Call it the loophole salvation method. John Paul is saying God reserves the right to save anyone, Catholic or otherwise.

Now I've argued this point with a Catholic who seemed to know lots more Catholic teachings than me, and she pointed out this was not an infallible teaching, and that certain earlier teachings that are infallible spell almost certain damnation for all non-Catholics.

Call me an optimist for siding with my quote, and honestly if I found out that the official teaching was otherwise, it would put more distance between me and the Catholic church.

slarti,

forgive my blasphemous tone, but, the current pope writes in a loophole to make catholicism more pallateable, and it holds water with god? isn't that quote in direct opposition to the one mrnoodle posted?

you can't rewrite the rules. not even if you happen to be the pope. or do catholics believe that john paul II gets commumicaes from the almighty? what, he got an evangelical memo clarifiying the rule? Did God's Lawyers write that in as a disclaimer...ie...

we reserve the right to make exceptions. not all souls will qualify. contact your local salvation dealer for details. Not available in all areas, restrictions apply. tax and tags additional.

You guys get prizes? I get a one dollar coupon to Mcdonalds for each soul. That's just evil I tell you, I should complain to management.

Blasphemous? I've heard worse. Carry on.

Someone's going to have to please point out that quote, I can't find it and skimming the six pages of this thread once is far as I can get without my head imploding.

But look, you've got several groups of people to look at:

-those born before Jesus, are they all damned because they could never hear about an event in the future?

-Those that have never heard of Jesus because they are in isolated geographic places.

-unbaptized babies.

-and finally, those that have heard the Good News (TM) but heard it improperly, poorly, or wrongly so they never did get a chance to accept Jesus the 'right way'.

Is it wrong to argue that since God's salvation is universal there must be a valid way for it to be available to EVERYONE somehow?

i put the two right there. your summary of the quote you posted, and mrnoodle's scripture quote.

the two quotes are at odds.

no.

Not only had Gandhi had the opportunity to know about Christianity, he devoted his life to kicking the Christians out of his country! Not because they were Christians, but still.

Do you mean Gandhi's efforts to free India from the English government? If that is the way you mean, then you are right.

But from what I understand, Gandhi was very tolerant of other religions, and he specifically acted to promote the tolerance between Hindu and Moslem and Christian people in India.

For all I know Gandhi may be frying in hell, but the fact is that I don't know, the issue is between Gandhi and God. The Pope's quote is saying you can't out of hand assume anyone is condemned to hell.

To reconcile my quote with mrnoodles, that salvation is still exclusively through Jesus. The acceptance of him (and the Church) can happen at the moment of death through some unique form of grace granted by God.

It is like those people who live a terrible life but have a deathbed conversion. In a way it looks like a cop-out to say that God would accept such a thing, but give the Big Guy some credit, I bet he can tell a real conversion with full repentance from a fake one.

that, in point of fact, is exactly what they believe. That the pope is the living mouthpiece of god, able to make infallible edicts concerning matters of faith and practice.

Including the ability to correct and ammend previous "infallible edicts" concerning matters of faith and practice.
-sm

Is it wrong for me to consider all of this to be just about too damn funny?

No. I like watching christians argue doctrine too.

It's okay.

Sometimes I help them.

(When I was in college I used to help members of Campus Crusade for Christ experience their first spiritual crisis. It was their own silly fault for knocking on my door ...)

Actually though if it is infallible, it is infallible forever. You can clarify and interpret all you like, but even the current Pope can't delete previous delcarations.

well, thus the logical contradiction. and thus a strong reason why I'm not catholic.

Also, I'm anit-funny-hat. so there's that.

-sm

Does Heaven really exist at all? I think that as science and medicine develop further, it will be obvious to most clear thinking people, that what we feel, how we think, and what makes us what we are, is the result of the interactions of millions of cells in our bodies, compounded with our day to day experiences in life. I don't think there is anything mystical or spiritual about it - just plain old biology.

Of course, being human, we'll stick doggedly to our beliefs like super glue, regardless of scientific evidence to the contrary.

Reader's Digest version - if people haven't heard specifically about Jesus, the gospel, etc., they will be judged according to the law that is written on their heart. I interpret it to mean that God programmed you already. Headhunters with plates in their lips will be judged, but not necessarily by whether or not they know who Jesus was.

A question for slart (or anyone else versed in Catholicism), completely unrelated to the rest of this post.... where, in the bible, is any authority given to the pope to make "infallible" doctrine? Why did Jesus have to die if a mere human has the authority to forgive sin? Why do you have to confess to anyone other than God?

At dinner, when Catholics want to ask their fathers to pass the potatoes, do they have to go through their mothers for permission to ask the fathers? :blunt:

There are several questions here, let me tackle two right now, and leave the rest for a later moment when I have some time to write and think more.

'Why did Jesus have to die if a mere human has the authority to forgive sin? '

That would be putting the cart before the horse. The mere human alone can't forgive sin, the authority comes from higher up. That priest is acting as a representative and physical human stand in for God.


'Why do you have to confess to anyone other than God?'

Call it good psychology. Why do people spend so much on psychologists and psychiatrists to unload things off their mind? People need to vent and get things out, or else things could stay inside and fester. Confessing to another person all the negative shit you do is a part of addressing it, like the Alcoholic who finally admits to others in AA that he has a problem. Once you admit to a problem, you can deal with it and move on. Confessing to God through just prayer is still too much of an internal dialog, there has to be an external human element to the process.

(Do you know where heaven is?)
 

Do you know where hell is?

Do you know where the lake of fire is?

Iff i did not know where i was going would you follow me???

*blinks*

waht have you lost?
 

Freedom and control of your life. Religion is to control.

control
 

What have you lost, lumberjim? Freedom and control of your life, that's all. The purpose of religion is control.

This points to a basic misconception about the afterlife--that after our physical death we might remain individuals, with the name and the identity we had while alive.

If we think instead of the animating spark of life within us as a small part of a complete, singular universe, then the very idea of our individuality becomes a matter of biological constraints. These counstraints would be undone upon our death, and therefore any illusion of individuality.

We would go to heaven not as individual souls travelling to a cosmic vacation resort, but rather upon our physical death we would simply rejoin the universe we temporarily forgot that we were a part of all along.

At that point, concepts like "free will" no longer have any meaning.

There is no "I" in heaven.

the purpose of religion is control. I agree. well said.



<-----------ooooo.....12k! damn.

who's talking about religion? i was talking about faith.

I love this question... it just cuts right thru all the bullshit.

If one does not believe in heaven, how can there be or not be freewill?

Oh hell, don't let that stop you. Everyone else is speculating about something they know nothing about. ;)

Who is Faith?

If the laws of physics (which we still don't understand perfectly) control the behavior of the atoms in our bodies, and the atoms in our bodies control the behavior of our cells, and our cells determine what our brains do, then everything we do is determined by the way the natural environment was in motion when we were born. Our whole lives were mapped out for us before we were born. Not by a higher power, but mapped out the same way a ball will fall to the ground if you release it from your hand.

Or the other view is that we are sentient. That our consciousness is influenced by our bodies, but is separate from our bodies, and that we can make choices independent from the influences of our bodies.

You left out a step right here. "... if our brain is the same thing as our sentient mind ... ". That's the step I take issue with.

Two words come to mind when dealing with consciousness.

Indeterminacy and emergence.

Unless you are willing to state that a "magical" factor is necessary to produe a human mind, then it is 100% certain that the natural laws of physics determine what we are.

Now, in order to claim that the human mind is a result of "magical" or "supernatural" qualities (which there is no way of avoiding if you want to claim that we are not a result of the same mundane natural laws that produce everything else) one must assume an attitude of supremely self-satisfied, human-centric egotism.

not magic. abstract. the mind exists in abstraction. the brain exists in nature.